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PostPosted: July 16 17, 11:19 pm 
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Lesson wrote:
What's your proposition for winning the Central and the pennant on a consistent basis without tanking? Unless the Cardinals do that, which I don't think you want them to and I don't think the front office wants to do that either, the Cardinals have their hands tied behind their backs. Spending just to spend is stupid. As is making a move just to make a move. I think acquiring Stanton would be a step in the right direction as he is young enough to be around when the younger players in the system are able to contribute on a full time basis.


What I want them to do is pick one - either try to win now, or rebuild to try to win a couple years down the road. This thing where they just stick with the same team indefinitely that is clearly not that good just does not make any sense to me. Look at our division. At some point, you have to field a team that, on paper, can win more than 85 games. All the other teams in the division are aiming higher than that. If the Brewers make a trade or two, they could field a better team better than that on paper as soon as the rest of this season. The Reds are about a year behind them. The Cubs only need a couple tweaks and everyone will be predicting them for 103 wins again. The Pirates and Cardinals are roughly equals right now. I just cannot grasp why treading water around 85 wins while all the other teams in our division improve makes any kind of sense at all. And I'm not even convinced this team was ever worth 85 wins on paper heading into this season. What were those projections again? Didn't we have one that put them at like 78 or 79 wins or something? That seems about right.


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PostPosted: July 17 17, 6:44 am 
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Fat Strat wrote:
dmarx114 wrote:
If you want to turn the cardinals into the Marlins, and win 75 games every year, then sure, sell the farm for Stanton.


That's oversimplifying it.

We're in the unique-for-us position of both having quality prospects and being able to acquire quality prospects.

Let's say, for example, that we trade some combination of Oh, Lynn, and Rosenthal at the deadline this year. None of those players by themselves will net us the same kind of package that it would take to acquire Stanton. But, we should be able to get maybe 2-3 really good prospects (maybe 1-2 that are in or have top 100 talent) and 3 or more pretty decent prospects. To get Stanton back, because of his contract, you're probably looking at 1 elite prospect and 2 really good ones.

So, yeah, maybe we have to use up something that you might consider elite -- and that might even come from the MLB level -- but it's not like we have to empty the farm to get Stanton. It might be a net loss of one of our best prospects. That's hardly selling the farm and totally worth it to acquire a talent of Stanton's caliber, even considering the salary.


Yes, that's more reasonable. I took your comment about giving the Marlins whatever they want literally.


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PostPosted: July 17 17, 6:53 am 
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pioneer98 wrote:
Lesson wrote:
What's your proposition for winning the Central and the pennant on a consistent basis without tanking? Unless the Cardinals do that, which I don't think you want them to and I don't think the front office wants to do that either, the Cardinals have their hands tied behind their backs. Spending just to spend is stupid. As is making a move just to make a move. I think acquiring Stanton would be a step in the right direction as he is young enough to be around when the younger players in the system are able to contribute on a full time basis.


What I want them to do is pick one - either try to win now, or rebuild to try to win a couple years down the road. This thing where they just stick with the same team indefinitely that is clearly not that good just does not make any sense to me. Look at our division. At some point, you have to field a team that, on paper, can win more than 85 games. All the other teams in the division are aiming higher than that. If the Brewers make a trade or two, they could field a better team better than that on paper as soon as the rest of this season. The Reds are about a year behind them. The Cubs only need a couple tweaks and everyone will be predicting them for 103 wins again. The Pirates and Cardinals are roughly equals right now. I just cannot grasp why treading water around 85 wins while all the other teams in our division improve makes any kind of sense at all. And I'm not even convinced this team was ever worth 85 wins on paper heading into this season. What were those projections again? Didn't we have one that put them at like 78 or 79 wins or something? That seems about right.


Not for nothing, but this team has won more than 85 games for 9 straight years.


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PostPosted: July 17 17, 6:57 am 
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I don't understand why so many people here are under the impression management is "content" with winning around 85 games. After the 100 win season, Mo spent $80 million on a free agent starting pitcher and traded for power hitting 3rd baseman. After last season, Mo spent $85 million on a free agent center fielder and $32 million on a much needed lefty relief pitcher.

Do those moves sound like management is content with the roster after each season?


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PostPosted: July 17 17, 7:05 am 
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dmarx114 wrote:
I don't understand why so many people here are under the impression management is "content" with winning around 85 games. After the 100 win season, Mo spent $80 million on a free agent starting pitcher and traded for power hitting 3rd baseman. After last season, Mo spent $85 million on a free agent center fielder and $32 million on a much needed lefty relief pitcher.

Do those moves sound like management is content with the roster after each season?

I guess the argument could be made that while the team did win 100 games it was more of a fluke and it wasn't sustainable because their staff outperformed their stats immensely and it's up to the front office to know that the team needed more than just tweaks.


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PostPosted: July 17 17, 7:16 am 
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Magneto2.0 wrote:
dmarx114 wrote:
I don't understand why so many people here are under the impression management is "content" with winning around 85 games. After the 100 win season, Mo spent $80 million on a free agent starting pitcher and traded for power hitting 3rd baseman. After last season, Mo spent $85 million on a free agent center fielder and $32 million on a much needed lefty relief pitcher.

Do those moves sound like management is content with the roster after each season?

I guess the argument could be made that while the team did win 100 games it was more of a fluke and it wasn't sustainable because their staff outperformed their stats immensely and it's up to the front office to know that the team needed more than just tweaks.


I don't consider buying a starting pitcher and a power hitting 3rd baseman tweaks.


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PostPosted: July 17 17, 7:27 am 
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dmarx114 wrote:
Magneto2.0 wrote:
dmarx114 wrote:
I don't understand why so many people here are under the impression management is "content" with winning around 85 games. After the 100 win season, Mo spent $80 million on a free agent starting pitcher and traded for power hitting 3rd baseman. After last season, Mo spent $85 million on a free agent center fielder and $32 million on a much needed lefty relief pitcher.

Do those moves sound like management is content with the roster after each season?

I guess the argument could be made that while the team did win 100 games it was more of a fluke and it wasn't sustainable because their staff outperformed their stats immensely and it's up to the front office to know that the team needed more than just tweaks.


I don't consider buying a starting pitcher and a power hitting 3rd baseman tweaks.

Leake and Gyrko aren't difference makers they are slight improvements on what we had


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PostPosted: July 17 17, 7:38 am 
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The trends aren't positive and there aren't any premium position players in the high minors. You can talk about what the Cardinals did from 2011-15 or you can acknowledge the direction they're headed. They haven't shown an inclination (or the aptitude) to trade the prospects or make the financial commitment required to add the type of player they claim to seek. Until they prove otherwise, it's not worth paying attention to the talk.


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PostPosted: July 17 17, 7:50 am 
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I wonder if Mo knew he was trading for the player Gyorko has become.


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PostPosted: July 17 17, 7:56 am 
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Citing the total value of the contract for Leake and Fowler is pretty irrelevant because the Cardinals paid market price for 2-3 win (league average) players.

The money Fowler and Cecil are making this year is less than the money that went out with Holliday, Moss and Garcia.

Either you don't get the context of the contracts, or you're being willfully ignorant.


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