Will Thompson get "Ponson'd"?

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TAZ
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Re: Will Thompson get "Ponson'd"?

Post by TAZ »

GatewaySnayke wrote:when the cards lost their closer last sept and, instead of promoting looper, turned the 8th / 9th innings over to a couple of rookies instead --- that spoke loud and clear about what looper is worth. he's being paid 8th/9th inning money but is only a 6th/7th inning pitcher.
I think Looper pitching in the 7th was more to the credit of Wainwright's ability (and performance) and didn't speak about how they "valued" Looper. When Adam went to the closer, Looper did step up to the set-up role and did fine.
I feel weird about it, but I'm starting to get a little excited about Looper starting, personally I think he'll be better than league average :oops: :ducks:

I think Thompson will be the Wainwright of this year, like said before, and that means Loop will be more "valuable" as a starter instead of that 7th inning guy. LaDunc can manage and get consistent results out of inconsistent pitchers by mixing and matching.

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Post by cardfaninfla »

GatewaySnayke wrote:
cardfaninfla wrote:Or in other words I have already made up my mind and I don't care how well he pitches I will dismiss it because it is spring training.
So you think I should be impressed? OK, Jason Marquis has been outstanding this spring, or he was in his last start. Am I supposed to rue the day the Cardinals chose not to re-sign him? If Looper is doing this later in the month, then perhaps I'll eat those words. But shutting down guys wearing No. 89 isn't about to make me start doing backflips.
I don't know if Looper can give starter innings without breaking down, buit I do know that the one time Thompson was asked to give starter innings he DID break down.
As I recall it, it was a bullpen game and he wasn't asked to give more than three innings, though they were able to stretch him out during his stint in Memphis. But this presents an interesting case: on one hand you want me to pat Looper on the back for having two good outings in ST, then on the other hand you want to dismiss Thompson based off of a start a year ago. Which is it?
I can't believe that people still think Ponson didn't earn the job in spring training. I heard every excuse for Reyes in the world last year while he was pitching, well every excuse except that he was pitching bad.
Flip Ponson and Reyes's numbers and it still comes out in favor of Ponson. There was no "competition." LaRuncan did not push for Ponson because they were dreaming of him coming out of the bullpen. But you're right -- it wasn't Reyes's job, it was Wainwright's.
It would absolutly make my year if Looper came out and went 3-1 with a 3.50 ERA the first month of the season.
Well, I would be right there with you, as would everyone else who roots for the Cardinals. Unfortunately, those numbers would probably happen if he were coming out of the bullpen, and not pitching the rotation.
Just as I wouldn't ask you to be impressed over a few spring training innings I would think you wouls have a bit of an open mind about him getting a shot, but you have shown you don't with your "ponsoned" comment.

It is good to know that you KNOW what LaRussa is thinking and when he really telling the truth. Please alert us in the future to when you know LaRussa isn't giving a guy a fair shot and just giving out lip service.

Thompson was a starter ONE time in his minoe league career for any length of time. Right after his scoreless innings streak he was shut down due to arm problems and many speculated it was due to trying to start.

I like Thompson, but he has no more shown the ability to handle 150 innings than Looper has. Just wondering but are all the hitters that start games against the Cards in spring training all minor league players, that is what I keep hearing. Has Pujols hit this spring yet?? Or are we the only team getting our regulars some work?

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Post by GatewaySnayke »

cardfaninfla wrote:Just as I wouldn't ask you to be impressed over a few spring training innings I would think you wouls have a bit of an open mind about him getting a shot, but you have shown you don't with your "ponsoned" comment.
You're absolutely right -- I don't have an open mind about this, and I'm not going to hide that fact. I think it's an awful idea that is not going to work out. But that doesn't mean that I don't WANT it to work out, or that I'm NOT rooting for Looper. I root for everyone on the Cardinals, and this is no different. Looking at all the evidence, reading up on the expert analysis though, there's nothing that has given me reason to believe something good will come out of this.
It is good to know that you KNOW what LaRussa is thinking and when he really telling the truth. Please alert us in the future to when you know LaRussa isn't giving a guy a fair shot and just giving out lip service.
It's what they pay me for.
Thompson was a starter ONE time in his minoe league career for any length of time. Right after his scoreless innings streak he was shut down due to arm problems and many speculated it was due to trying to start.
Yes, RC brought me up to speed, and I glanced over his minor league numbers.
I like Thompson, but he has no more shown the ability to handle 150 innings than Looper has.
But isn't it more likely that a guy who is still 25 and doesn't throw very hard has a better chance of throwing those 150 innings than a guy that is 32, hasn't started in 10 years and had a bad AC joint? Let's also not forget that even though Looper throws harder than Thompson, it ain't by much and his fastball has as much life on it as Jose Lima.
Just wondering but are all the hitters that start games against the Cards in spring training all minor league players, that is what I keep hearing. Has Pujols hit this spring yet?? Or are we the only team getting our regulars some work?
He pitched to LA's big league team yesterday, but here are the guys that he pitched against in his first start.

David Newhan
Endy Chavez
Some Gomez
Damion Easley
Julio Franco
Some Carp
Ruben Sierra
Some Ambres
Sandy Alomar, Jr.
Mike DiFelice
Ruben Gotay
Anderson Hernandez

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Post by cardfaninfla »

I have to wonder how it can be a terrible idea before we see what the outcome is. Oh I know, you already KNOW that LaRussa is planning on starting him over any other candidates despite what happens in spring training. This is almost as good a the old SaintLouisSportsFan's our season is over thread.

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Post by GatewaySnayke »

cardfaninfla wrote:I have to wonder how it can be a terrible idea before we see what the outcome is. Oh I know, you already KNOW that LaRussa is planning on starting him over any other candidates despite what happens in spring training. This is almost as good a the old SaintLouisSportsFan's our season is over thread.
It's the complete opposite of SLSF. SLSF was dismissing a team that had five very capable pitchers plus one of the best offenses in the league.

I'm dismissing a 32 year old career reliever that hasn't started since he was pitching in A ball and hasn't thrown more than three innings at any time during his major league career. Plus his best pitch is a 93-mph fastball with zero movement and a slider that gets routinely crushed by lefthanded hitters.

And I don't KNOW that La Russa is planning to start him despite his ST training results, so drop the condescension. I will say that he has an 85-90 percent chance of winning it though.

Now, I believe I've come up with a multitude of reasons why I don't think Looper can be a starter. You've yet to make an argument FOR Looper, only AGAINST Thompson. Would you care to take a stab?

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Post by haltz »

you already KNOW that LaRussa is planning on starting him over any other candidates despite what happens in spring training.
It isn't "know" it's "most likely". We know that the *competition* is handicapped, at least this time Tony and Dave aren't being duplicitous in their declarations.
Derrick Goold wrote:La Russa discussed at length with reporters Sunday morning the notion Duncan first presented more than a week ago to The Post-Dispatch: That three of the contending starting pitchers — Anthony Reyes, Adam Wainwright and Braden Looper – come into spring with a slight edge over the other competitors. That edge may go just as far as getting the first round of exhibition-game starts.

(...)

“If (Duncan) makes that claim taht we’ve got five guys and the other two guys or three guys have to show something extra to nudge one of them aside, then he’s thought about that and he understands the pitcher better than I do. So, we’ll go with that,” La Russa said. “You stop and think about the sense in that. I think it’s sending the right message to Anthony Reyes, to Braden Looper, to Adam Wainwright. I think what he’s saying is you guys have the best shot to be in the five.”

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GatewaySnayke wrote:
cardfaninfla wrote:I have to wonder how it can be a terrible idea before we see what the outcome is. Oh I know, you already KNOW that LaRussa is planning on starting him over any other candidates despite what happens in spring training. This is almost as good a the old SaintLouisSportsFan's our season is over thread.
It's the complete opposite of SLSF. SLSF was dismissing a team that had five very capable pitchers plus one of the best offenses in the league.

I'm dismissing a 32 year old career reliever that hasn't started since he was pitching in A ball and hasn't thrown more than three innings at any time during his major league career. Plus his best pitch is a 93-mph fastball with zero movement and a slider that gets routinely crushed by lefthanded hitters.

And I don't KNOW that La Russa is planning to start him despite his ST training results, so drop the condescension. I will say that he has an 85-90 percent chance of winning it though.

Now, I believe I've come up with a multitude of reasons why I don't think Looper can be a starter. You've yet to make an argument FOR Looper, only AGAINST Thompson. Would you care to take a stab?
I think Looper might be able to start for a few reasons.

1.)I think he has the stuff for it. I think part of Loopers problem is that he's always tried to use his stuff to get past hitters instead of pitching to them. He has a good fastball but, like you said, it has no movement. Working multiple innings will force him to change his approach to pitching (He hasn't had to in the past because he HAS been a successful reliever). Now he's going to have to locate his pitches, moving his fastball up down, in and out, to keep hitters off balance. If he's added a splitter like I hear then that means he has 3-4 pitches (I want to say he'd have his fastball, the slider, splitter, change) that he can routinely use to get hitters out.

2.) Duncan believes in him. I don't know much about pitching or how it works. But I know Duncan does. So i'm taking his word for it until Looper proves me wrong. It could very well be that Looper is more suited for the approach that starters take to get hitters out.

3.) Looper is 32, he doesn't have to be babied when it comes to his stamina. He has the body type to be able to stretch out quickly. He might not be pretty looking, but he is athletic. He's another season removed from shoulder surgery, which should also help his health.

4.) Looper's expectations aren't very high. If he goes out there and puts up a 4.50 ERA then I think most of us will be happy. I always heard that you add about 1.50 ERA from a reliever to his ability to start. That would have made him a 5.06 ERA (or the same as Reyes gave us) pitcher last season. That would have been better than two of our starters and is perfectly fine for a #5 starter fill-in that we expect to pitch till Mulder is healthy.

5.) It's a challenge. I'm a firm believer in emotional effects on performance. This has given Looper soemthing to work for, to drive. He wants to success and I think that detirmination will help him.

6.) His K rate wasn't that good last season, but for his career if he can manage 6-7k/9 then that should be more than enough to compensate for his lack of starter command. Really, if you think about it most #5 starters don't have Looper's stuff.

I think Loopers biggest challange is going to be throwing 100+ pitches without his mechanics deteriorating. It seems like he's going to be a location pitcher and he doesn't have impeccable command so i'm betting we're going to see him get a higher pitch count earlier than some of our other starters. If he can stay under 100 pitches for the first 5 innings he should be fine. If he can stay effective after his first 60 pitches I think he will be a success.

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Post by JL21 »

Let's keep this friendly.

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Post by TheoSqua »

RC21 wrote:Let's keep this friendly.
Image

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Post by JL21 »

TheoSqua wrote:
RC21 wrote:Let's keep this friendly.
Image
Too friendly.

Actually, that's hilarious. Good job, Theo.

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