Jeter: Worst Fielder in Baseball?

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Radio_Bugtussle
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Re: Jeter: Worst Fielder in Baseball?

Post by Radio_Bugtussle »

I'm amused given that Bill James is in the employ of the Boston Red Sox... :D

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skmsw
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Re: Jeter: Worst Fielder in Baseball?

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st.lewis11 wrote:
skmsw wrote:
st.lewis11 wrote:I'm not buying this at all, whether it's an overall ranking , or by position.........off the top of my head, guys like Duncan, Adam Dunn, or Jeff Kent couldn't hold Jeter's jock out in the field.........heck at shortstop, I know Jeter's not that good, but would anybody seriously take guys like Eckstein or Counsell over him?....c'mon. Jeter's got more range than Eck, and obviously a better arm......I suspect some biased hating going on here.(although I'm not enamored myself with him)
Nope. Every advanced way of looking at defense has consistently found Jeter to be one of the worse fielding shortstops in the major leagues. All of them, practically every time.
Exactly why I'm questioning credibility of the "advanced" methods in measuring standards of defense; other than comparing the numbers & basic fielding stats, such as errors & fielding percentage, there seems to be alot of subjectivity or opinionated claims that we are expected to accept as true......at least offense stats are based on true numbers, cut & dry...........I still stand by my statements in previous post in comparing the mentioned players to Jeter.

To help explain my skepticism, I'm comparing the fielding statiticians to the scientists who did bogus experiments to support false claims, to gain government grants.

Eckstein a better shortstop than Jeter?....yeah, right.
Personally, I've always thought that Jeter was over-rated defensively. He's lithe and athletic, so he looks good out there, when those grounders are juuuuuust out of his exquisite reach, "nothing he could do." Well, nothing except read the ball off the bat better, get a quicker first step, position himself more effectively, take a more effective route, etc etc etc . . . all things my eyes have told me since before there was a PMR or BIS RZR/OOZ or UZR.

The defensive metrics we have nowadays are far from perfect -- but they are not subjective or opinionated either. Before you stand by your statements, you probably ought to learn a little more about them. Some of the defensive models now in play involve things like using cameras and computers to measure the direction and speed of every batted ball, then determining how many batted balls a given player turns into outs compared to average players at his position, adjusted for difficulty of the play, incorporating plays made outside of his own defensive zone, etc.

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Re: Jeter: Worst Fielder in Baseball?

Post by Sutter'sBeard »

But he made that sweet flip in the playoffs against the A's.

Most overrated play of all time!

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Re: Jeter: Worst Fielder in Baseball?

Post by mcgee51taguchi99 »

Sutter'sBeard wrote:But he made that sweet flip in the playoffs against the A's.

Most overrated play of all time!
It was certainly good improvisation.

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Re: Jeter: Worst Fielder in Baseball?

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Eckstein was a much, much better shortstop than Jeter. Reaction time is the biggest factor in middle infield defense, and also the hardest to eyeball. Despite the pansy throwing arm, Eckstein had the reflexes and the range to be a little above league average in his healthier years. Jeter's terrible reaction times and sluggish movement to his left has consistently made him a historically bad shortstop.

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Sutter'sBeard
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Re: Jeter: Worst Fielder in Baseball?

Post by Sutter'sBeard »

mcgee51taguchi99 wrote:
Sutter'sBeard wrote:But he made that sweet flip in the playoffs against the A's.

Most overrated play of all time!
It was certainly good improvisation.

Good improvisation yes, but I will never consider any play that I could phyically complete to be one of the best defensive plays of all time.

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Re: Jeter: Worst Fielder in Baseball?

Post by jim »

skmsw wrote:Personally, I've always thought that Jeter was over-rated defensively. He's lithe and athletic, so he looks good out there, when those grounders are juuuuuust out of his exquisite reach, "nothing he could do." Well, nothing except read the ball off the bat better, get a quicker first step, position himself more effectively, take a more effective route, etc etc etc . . . all things my eyes have told me since before there was a PMR or BIS RZR/OOZ or UZR.
Yep ...
cpebbles wrote:Eckstein was a much, much better shortstop than Jeter. Reaction time is the biggest factor in middle infield defense, and also the hardest to eyeball. Despite the pansy throwing arm, Eckstein had the reflexes and the range to be a little above league average in his healthier years. Jeter's terrible reaction times and sluggish movement to his left has consistently made him a historically bad shortstop.
and yep.

Eck had as good a first step as any SS in the game, and a quick release to compensate for his arm strength.

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skmsw
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Re: Jeter: Worst Fielder in Baseball?

Post by skmsw »

An interesting note -- Eck was dead last in PMR in 2008 among shortstops with at least 1,000 innings . . . dead last. He lost that step, and given his overall skillset, when that was gone he couldn't compensate . . .

. . . or maybe it was just an off-year; I also know that Toronto is a really hard place to play infield defense . . . but still, dead last.

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Re: Jeter: Worst Fielder in Baseball?

Post by Jmodene »

I agree with the assessment that Jeter is the most over-rated defensive player in baseball, but not with the assessment that he's the "worst" defensive player in baseball, given that there are a lot worse defensive players out there.

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Re: Jeter: Worst Fielder in Baseball?

Post by cpebbles »

Really depends on how you look at the question. Nobody is saying that if Matt Stairs was penciled in at shortstop, he'd do better than Jeter. But Jeter has the cachet to hold his death grip on the shortstop position, and there is a case to be made that nobody has more consistently hurt his team defensively than Jeter has. Yeah, the blame for that is largely on the manager and front office, but to some extent that's the case for every defensive liability.

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