Former Cardinals Watch

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JoeMcKim
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Re: Former Cardinals Watch

Post by JoeMcKim »

I was going to say that Rolen was good again when he was with the Reds but now that I look at his B-R page he really only had one good and healthy year with the Reds. The Reds really got the short end of the stick in the Rolen/Encarnacion trae.

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lukethedrifter
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Re: Former Cardinals Watch

Post by lukethedrifter »

You say 10% but you could argue 100%.

OPS+ of 100 is the mean for a given year, right? Rolen was twice as better than average.

Socnorb11
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Re: Former Cardinals Watch

Post by Socnorb11 »

a_smith wrote:
Felix The Cat wrote:
a_smith wrote:
Socnorb11 wrote:
Swirls wrote:
Jocephus wrote:
JB
10:01
Jim Thome, Scott Rolen, Andruw Jones, Omar Vizquel ... which one(s) are Hall of Famers in your opinion?

Jeff Sullivan
10:01
Thome and Rolen
Interesting that he says Jones isn't a Hall of Famer considering he put up almost exactly the same WAR as Rolen and Thome in the same number of years as Rolen. And not to mention he has like 25 more career WAR than someone like Brock.

Rolen was a significantly better hitter than Andruw Jones. A big portion of Jones' WAR comes from defense (moreso than Rolen), but you'll never convince me that Jones was more valuable than Rolen defensively. Defensive WAR gets tricky.
By what measure?
Rolen PA 8518 OPS 855 OPS+ 122
Jones PA 8664 OPS 823 OPS+ 111

Thats pretty close for that many plate appearances
Wouldn't the difference be more significant as the sample size gets larger? 8500+ PAs is a lot.
depends on what you mean by significant. I don't see that big a difference. I hear the word significant and I am thinking larger. Like Pham vs Piscotty, or a random lineup generator vs Matheny. Not a 10% difference.

Pham has a 126 wRC+ for his career. Piscotty is at 113 wRC+.

So the difference between Rolen/Jones is about the same as the difference between Pham/Piscotty.

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haltz
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Re: Former Cardinals Watch

Post by haltz »

I'm sure he means this year.

That's something like 10 runs over the course of 650 PA, which isn't a huge difference, but over the course of their careers it adds up to a dozen wins or so which is significant in a Hall of Fame discussion.

According to FG, Jones almost makes up that difference on defense, which is incredible considering Rolen is one of the best defenders of all time in his own right.

Socnorb11
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Re: Former Cardinals Watch

Post by Socnorb11 »

haltz wrote:I'm sure he means this year.

That's something like 10 runs over the course of 650 PA, which isn't a huge difference, but over the course of their careers it adds up to a dozen wins or so which is significant in a Hall of Fame discussion.

According to FG, Jones almost makes up that difference on defense, which is incredible considering Rolen is one of the best defenders of all time in his own right.

Yeah, I mentioned the defensive thing earlier. I'm not saying defensive metrics are junk, but you'll never convince me that Andruw Jones was more valuable defensively than Rolen was. I'm obviously biased, but still............

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a_smith
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Re: Former Cardinals Watch

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haltz wrote:I'm sure he means this year.

That's something like 10 runs over the course of 650 PA, which isn't a huge difference, but over the course of their careers it adds up to a dozen wins or so which is significant in a Hall of Fame discussion.

According to FG, Jones almost makes up that difference on defense, which is incredible considering Rolen is one of the best defenders of all time in his own right.
yeah I was thinking of pham vs piscotty this year. But that is funny about their careers and I deserve to get called out for a lack of precision there.

and those extra hits a year that Rolen had really add up to those dozen wins.

just to go back to the original point.
I love Rolen and think he should be a HOF, but it is hard to see how different he was from Jones.

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a_smith
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Re: Former Cardinals Watch

Post by a_smith »

Socnorb11 wrote:
haltz wrote:I'm sure he means this year.

That's something like 10 runs over the course of 650 PA, which isn't a huge difference, but over the course of their careers it adds up to a dozen wins or so which is significant in a Hall of Fame discussion.

According to FG, Jones almost makes up that difference on defense, which is incredible considering Rolen is one of the best defenders of all time in his own right.

Yeah, I mentioned the defensive thing earlier. I'm not saying defensive metrics are junk, but you'll never convince me that Andruw Jones was more valuable defensively than Rolen was. I'm obviously biased, but still............
I have no idea, but what is the value of a great CF vs a great 3b?

Socnorb11
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Re: Former Cardinals Watch

Post by Socnorb11 »

a_smith wrote:
Socnorb11 wrote:
haltz wrote:I'm sure he means this year.

That's something like 10 runs over the course of 650 PA, which isn't a huge difference, but over the course of their careers it adds up to a dozen wins or so which is significant in a Hall of Fame discussion.

According to FG, Jones almost makes up that difference on defense, which is incredible considering Rolen is one of the best defenders of all time in his own right.

Yeah, I mentioned the defensive thing earlier. I'm not saying defensive metrics are junk, but you'll never convince me that Andruw Jones was more valuable defensively than Rolen was. I'm obviously biased, but still............
I have no idea, but what is the value of a great CF vs a great 3b?

It's hard to say. Probably impossible, really.

Again, I'm biased. Rolen, to me, might have been the best third baseman ever. He just seemed flawless down there.

You can't go wrong with either guy I guess.

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Re: Former Cardinals Watch

Post by Johnconrad »

The great CF has more impact on a team's chances. Strength up the middle is vital.

The Cardinals are much better with Pham in CF than Fowler.

There's a reason.

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Jocephus
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Re: Former Cardinals Watch

Post by Jocephus »

Zonk
9:16
Hopes were high for Jason Heyward coming into this year, but he's turned in another poor offensive performance so far. Is there any hope, or is he broken? Will that contract prove regrettable?

Jeff Sullivan
9:17
Any hope is tied up in the fact that he's 28 years old, and he still makes a lot of contact. The physical abilities remain, so Heyward remains intriguing. But, obviously, there's even less hope for him now than there was last March. The Cubs would like to back out of this if they could, I'm certain

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