Poll: Matheny's Job Security
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Re: Poll: Matheny's Job Security
Honest question here because I don't really follow the Giants but I get the impression that most would consider Bruce B. out in San Francisco a better manager than Matheny by far... but what's the deal with the collapse of the Giants? The Giants and Cards were trading World Series appearances and facing off in the NLCS for a few years there but now they finished with the worst record in the majors this year and are way below .500 since the all star break last season.
Is he suddenly a bad manager?
Is he suddenly a bad manager?
- InvincibleCakeEater
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Re: Poll: Matheny's Job Security
Haven't watched enough of him to decide one way or another, but they're bad because they're a poorly built team.tlombard wrote:Honest question here because I don't really follow the Giants but I get the impression that most would consider Bruce B. out in San Francisco a better manager than Matheny by far... but what's the deal with the collapse of the Giants? The Giants and Cards were trading World Series appearances and facing off in the NLCS for a few years there but now they finished with the worst record in the majors this year and are way below .500 since the all star break last season.
Is he suddenly a bad manager?
- Transmogrified Tiger
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Re: Poll: Matheny's Job Security
The 2016 Giants got 10.4 fWAR from Bumgarner and Cueto in 66 starts. The 2017 Giants got 2.9 fWAR from Bumgarner and Cueto in 42 starts.
The 2016 Giants got 10.0 fWAR from full seasons of Crawford and Belt. The 2017 Giants got 4.3 fWAR from full seasons of Crawford and Belt.
That's a ton of productivity to lose from the top of your roster, and the Giants haven't had the farm system to offer up alternative impact players. Plus their bullpen continued to be the problem it was in 2016 even though they added Melancon.
I don't think Bochy is a managing savant and I don't think he's particularly a mastermind who brought together the even year championships, so at the same time I don't think he bears much blame for overseeing that core's downturn, even if it was a bit unexpected.
EDIT: Let's put it another way. Imagine losing 100% of Pham and Martinez's value from the 2017 Cards without being able to replace their playing time. No manager in the world is going to make that team successful. What Bochy dealt with was worse than that from a value standpoint.
The 2016 Giants got 10.0 fWAR from full seasons of Crawford and Belt. The 2017 Giants got 4.3 fWAR from full seasons of Crawford and Belt.
That's a ton of productivity to lose from the top of your roster, and the Giants haven't had the farm system to offer up alternative impact players. Plus their bullpen continued to be the problem it was in 2016 even though they added Melancon.
I don't think Bochy is a managing savant and I don't think he's particularly a mastermind who brought together the even year championships, so at the same time I don't think he bears much blame for overseeing that core's downturn, even if it was a bit unexpected.
EDIT: Let's put it another way. Imagine losing 100% of Pham and Martinez's value from the 2017 Cards without being able to replace their playing time. No manager in the world is going to make that team successful. What Bochy dealt with was worse than that from a value standpoint.
Last edited by Transmogrified Tiger on October 7 17, 11:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
- CardsofSTL
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Re: Poll: Matheny's Job Security
I have heard people talking about Bochy as a great manager ever since he won his first game managing the Padres it seems. I don't see anything particularly special about his management skills; but at the same time I don't see anything he does that is particularly detrimental to the club. I would have to follow West coast teams a bit closer to be 100 percent sure; but I think he is a capable manager when he has talent. I would argue there are some managers; one in particular comes to mind that is currently managing in the postseason; that when they have talent they abuse it or squander it. I don't think Bochy is that kind of guy.
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Re: Poll: Matheny's Job Security
What TTiger said probably explains a lot of what happened, but here were the other common talking points in the Bay Area this summer:tlombard wrote:Honest question here because I don't really follow the Giants but I get the impression that most would consider Bruce B. out in San Francisco a better manager than Matheny by far... but what's the deal with the collapse of the Giants? The Giants and Cards were trading World Series appearances and facing off in the NLCS for a few years there but now they finished with the worst record in the majors this year and are way below .500 since the all star break last season.
Is he suddenly a bad manager?
-The Giants have not evolved with the game over the past couple of years. While most other teams have become homer-happy, the Giants have been seriously lacking in power.
-Their front office has presented the team as a pitching/defensive team, but neither of those facets of their game were good.
-Crawford lost his sister-in-law early in the season, and that kind of loss can understandably have a big impact on one's professional performance, regardless of their line of work.
-Melancon supposedly created a big rift in the clubhouse. Word is that he came into the clubhouse with a me-first attitude, ultimately cancelling the bullpen's tradition of stretching and working out together. This changed the clubhouse atmosphere, close on the heels of another big change in clubhouse chemistry that happened in 2016 when Matt Duffy was traded. Things got so bad that the team supposedly picked up Sandoval just to try to infuse some positive clubhouse energy (and to sell some Panda hats).
Largely, most of this isn't on Bochy; they lost key bullpen pieces (Affeldt, Casilla, good-Romo, etc.) and didn't adequately replace them. Pence is getting old, Posey isn't protected in the lineup, ect. That said, one could easily argue that the clubhouse chemistry problems are Bochy's responsibility.
The Giants have a lot of holes, without many internal solutions... their farm is nothing to get excited about. The locals are beginning to feel like a complete rebuild will be necessary for the Giants to return to glory.
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Re: Poll: Matheny's Job Security
Reading the highlights of Hummel's chat, and he said flatly that if Cards miss the playoffs Matheny would not be back. He doesn't say that his opinion, or if someone has told him that. Odd that he would be that direct about it.
- Hoot45
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Re: Poll: Matheny's Job Security
I'm sorry guys, I couldn't resist.
Sounds familiar. See: Aggressive pursuit of Stanton.TimJomsula wrote:The Giants have not evolved with the game over the past couple of years. While most other teams have become homer-happy, the Giants have been seriously lacking in power.
Sounds familiar. See: Focus on pitching and defense in Jupiter, spring 2017.TimJomsula wrote:Their front office has presented the team as a pitching/defensive team, but neither of those facets of their game were good.
Sounds familiar. See: Stephen Piscotty.TimJomsula wrote:Crawford lost his sister-in-law early in the season, and that kind of loss can understandably have a big impact on one's professional performance, regardless of their line of work.
Sounds familiar. See: Aging stars, aggressive pursuit of a middle of the order bat.TimJomsula wrote:Pence is getting old, Posey isn't protected in the lineup, ect. That said, one could easily argue that the clubhouse chemistry problems are Bochy's responsibility.
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Re: Poll: Matheny's Job Security
Spider John wrote:Reading the highlights of Hummel's chat, and he said flatly that if Cards miss the playoffs Matheny would not be back. He doesn't say that his opinion, or if someone has told him that. Odd that he would be that direct about it.
If they go out and spend 300 Million on Stanton, Matheny's leash will be shorter than ever.
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Re: Poll: Matheny's Job Security
Well done. Somehow, I didn't recognize those parallels when I typed my original message.Hoot45 wrote:I'm sorry guys, I couldn't resist.Sounds familiar. See: Aggressive pursuit of Stanton.TimJomsula wrote:The Giants have not evolved with the game over the past couple of years. While most other teams have become homer-happy, the Giants have been seriously lacking in power.Sounds familiar. See: Focus on pitching and defense in Jupiter, spring 2017.TimJomsula wrote:Their front office has presented the team as a pitching/defensive team, but neither of those facets of their game were good.Sounds familiar. See: Stephen Piscotty.TimJomsula wrote:Crawford lost his sister-in-law early in the season, and that kind of loss can understandably have a big impact on one's professional performance, regardless of their line of work.Sounds familiar. See: Aging stars, aggressive pursuit of a middle of the order bat.TimJomsula wrote:Pence is getting old, Posey isn't protected in the lineup, ect. That said, one could easily argue that the clubhouse chemistry problems are Bochy's responsibility.
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