Cardinals checked in on Stanton

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Johnconrad
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Re: Cardinals checked in on Stanton

Post by Johnconrad »

Lesson wrote:
Famous Mortimer wrote:
dmarx114 wrote:
Famous Mortimer wrote:The goal is long term success, not long term sustained sort-of-just-above mediocrity, which seems to be where this team has been for a while and will continue to be for a lot longer. I'm sick and tired of people making a fetish out of getting younger, or not having any huge contracts, as if that's what we watch baseball for.
Sort of just above mediocrity for a while?

That's a joke, right?
Not in the slightest. Start from the beginning of last season - what do you think they've been since then?
That's not even the length of 2 seasons. You're excluding 2015 in which they had 100 wins. 2 seasons, IMO, does not mean a while. The Cardinals are just going through a cycle of being mediocre like they went through from 2007-2010.
How'd 2015 turn out?

Great effort vs. the Flubs, right?

dmarx114
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Re: Cardinals checked in on Stanton

Post by dmarx114 »

Famous Mortimer wrote:
dmarx114 wrote:
Famous Mortimer wrote:The goal is long term success, not long term sustained sort-of-just-above mediocrity, which seems to be where this team has been for a while and will continue to be for a lot longer. I'm sick and tired of people making a fetish out of getting younger, or not having any huge contracts, as if that's what we watch baseball for.
Sort of just above mediocrity for a while?

That's a joke, right?
Not in the slightest. Start from the beginning of last season - what do you think they've been since then?
Oh, I was thinking "a while" meant like a decade.

Seems like I am having vocabulary difficulties tonight.

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Famous Mortimer
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Re: Cardinals checked in on Stanton

Post by Famous Mortimer »

Lesson wrote:
Famous Mortimer wrote:
dmarx114 wrote:
Famous Mortimer wrote:The goal is long term success, not long term sustained sort-of-just-above mediocrity, which seems to be where this team has been for a while and will continue to be for a lot longer. I'm sick and tired of people making a fetish out of getting younger, or not having any huge contracts, as if that's what we watch baseball for.
Sort of just above mediocrity for a while?

That's a joke, right?
Not in the slightest. Start from the beginning of last season - what do you think they've been since then?
That's not even the length of 2 seasons. You're excluding 2015 in which they had 100 wins. 2 seasons, IMO, does not mean a while. The Cardinals are just going through a cycle of being mediocre like they went through from 2007-2010.
Yes, I picked a starting point and went to today. I'm glad the memory of how good the team was in 2015 is allowing you to enjoy the Cardinals of 2016 and 2017 more.

Super glad this thread has turned into what the definition of a "while" is though.
Last edited by Famous Mortimer on July 16 17, 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dmarx114
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Re: Cardinals checked in on Stanton

Post by dmarx114 »

Johnconrad wrote:
Lesson wrote:
Famous Mortimer wrote:
dmarx114 wrote:
Famous Mortimer wrote:The goal is long term success, not long term sustained sort-of-just-above mediocrity, which seems to be where this team has been for a while and will continue to be for a lot longer. I'm sick and tired of people making a fetish out of getting younger, or not having any huge contracts, as if that's what we watch baseball for.
Sort of just above mediocrity for a while?

That's a joke, right?
Not in the slightest. Start from the beginning of last season - what do you think they've been since then?
That's not even the length of 2 seasons. You're excluding 2015 in which they had 100 wins. 2 seasons, IMO, does not mean a while. The Cardinals are just going through a cycle of being mediocre like they went through from 2007-2010.
How'd 2015 turn out?

Great effort vs. the Flubs, right?
Always a good idea to judge the long term status of an organization on a best of 5 series.
Last edited by dmarx114 on July 16 17, 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lesson
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Re: Cardinals checked in on Stanton

Post by Lesson »

Johnconrad wrote:
Lesson wrote:
Famous Mortimer wrote:
dmarx114 wrote:
Famous Mortimer wrote:The goal is long term success, not long term sustained sort-of-just-above mediocrity, which seems to be where this team has been for a while and will continue to be for a lot longer. I'm sick and tired of people making a fetish out of getting younger, or not having any huge contracts, as if that's what we watch baseball for.
Sort of just above mediocrity for a while?

That's a joke, right?
Not in the slightest. Start from the beginning of last season - what do you think they've been since then?
That's not even the length of 2 seasons. You're excluding 2015 in which they had 100 wins. 2 seasons, IMO, does not mean a while. The Cardinals are just going through a cycle of being mediocre like they went through from 2007-2010.
How'd 2015 turn out?

Great effort vs. the Flubs, right?
It turned into a division series loss vs the Cubs, yes.

I understand the cause for concern regarding personnel, but to be acting as if the Cardinals haven't been contenders recently is wrong. They just had the longest consecutive postseason streak in team history snapped in 2016.

I wouldn't be concerned with this team's performance or investment from ownership until 2019 at the earliest.
Famous Mortimer wrote:Yes, I picked a starting point and went to today. I'm glad the memory of how good the team was in 2015 is allowing you to enjoy the Cardinals of 2016 and 2017 more.

Super glad this thread has turned into what the definition of a "while" is though.
What's your proposition for winning the Central and the pennant on a consistent basis without tanking? Unless the Cardinals do that, which I don't think you want them to and I don't think the front office wants to do that either, the Cardinals have their hands tied behind their backs. Spending just to spend is stupid. As is making a move just to make a move. I think acquiring Stanton would be a step in the right direction as he is young enough to be around when the younger players in the system are able to contribute on a full time basis.
Famous Mortimer wrote:
Lesson wrote:but to be acting as if the Cardinals haven't been contenders recently is wrong..
Never said any such thing. It'd be a lot easier to have a discussion if you read what othre people write rather than just argue against some straw man you have in your head.

To restate: since the last series of 2015, the Cardinals have been mediocre at best. It shows no sign of improving.
The post I was responding to reference the Cardinals being mediocre for "a while". I interpreted that to be 3 seasons or more. Not 2.
Last edited by Lesson on July 16 17, 8:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Famous Mortimer
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Re: Cardinals checked in on Stanton

Post by Famous Mortimer »

Lesson wrote:but to be acting as if the Cardinals haven't been contenders recently is wrong..
Never said any such thing. It'd be a lot easier to have a discussion if you read what othre people write rather than just argue against some straw man you have in your head.

To restate: since the last series of 2015, the Cardinals have been mediocre at best. It shows no sign of improving.

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Re: Cardinals checked in on Stanton

Post by Spider John »

dmarx114 wrote:
Spider John wrote:So dmark, you're saying the team will be the same or worse if they were to get Stanton, because that's what I'm taking from that.
If you trade Reyes/weaver/bader/flaherty/Kelly/Perez for Stanton, then yes, you will have fewer wins than you would by not not acquiring him.

To be clear, I want Stanton. But I am not selling the farm to get him. My top offer is on page 1. If the Giants top it, than I want Mo to pass.
I don't want the team to do something stupid, and I think we all know that deal will never happen. The Marlins want out from under that contract more than they want a haul of prospects.

You could double the number of prospects you mentioned in a trade and odds are very good that not one of them will become the player that Stanton is. How often does a player like that come along?
Last edited by Spider John on July 16 17, 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Johnconrad
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Re: Cardinals checked in on Stanton

Post by Johnconrad »

I have summarized the modus operandi of the Cardinals' front office as follows - Complacent arrogance

Bernie Miklasz... the closest thing the soft St. Louis sports media has to reality has characterized "President" Mozeliak as the "smartest guy in the room"... just ask him.

Many hardcore St. Louis sports fans recognized Bill Plaschke's take-down of Jeff Fisher as the missing element in St. Louis sports media coverage. This column was the beginning of the end of the stubborn and petulant Fisher in Los Angeles. Ironic that the owner who clearly brought in Fisher to move the franchise fired him during the first season following the much celebrated move.

Just imagine seeing something like this in the St. Louis Post Dispatch. http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-ram ... story.html

Rams' return to L.A. is officially an embarrassment. Coach Jeff Fisher needs to go — now
www.latimes.com
Against all odds, in a city that embraced them, with fans who loved them, in a stadium that showcases them, the impossible has happened.
Actually, the time for something like this in the St. Louis sports media is overdue.

But, what we actually got was extensions and promotions all around. I'm sorry Bernie, but you, Karraker, Duncan, Stalter, and Brad Thompson should be embarrassed. We've all read the tripe. Let's see how it all plays out. It's early, it's early.. This is total BS. All of you have watched the team degrade over the past 5 years as the "smartest guy in the room" has allowed the middle of the order to disappear with no plan. Beltran, Craig, Holliday, Freese... All gone. And, we keep counting on the emergence of Windmill Grichuk to be that middle of the order bat. The words of Dal Maxvill ring in my ears. "We need an extra bat and Todd Zeile may be that bat" Todd Zeile wasn't that bat. And, Mr. Mozeliak - Windmill Grichuk is no Todd Zeile.

And, now the "shiny new front office apple" Michael Girsch gets promoted to "VP and General Manager" - reporting directly to John Mozeliak.

And, the team.. .in a word... sucks.

33% of the roster has turned over since opening day. What? What was spring training for?

The two major offseason "big moves" involved a centerfielder that cannot play CF and a 30 million dollar relief pitcher who can't pitch.

Cardinal fans are noticing there ARE other options. But, Cardinal management doesn't share that view.

The irony today was thick enough to cut with a knife. The two best CF in the National League were playing RF and LF next to the centerfielder that can't field his position. But, Dexy says "he's a centerfielder" - and there he is.

And, the denouement of the pratfall in Pittsburgh included the following

Fowler being doubled off 1st base in a baserunning blunder

Paul DeJong misplaying a ball a major league shortstop simply has to make to open the gates.

And, Tatman Bret Cecil piping fat pitch after fat pitch until the Pirates secured the victory.

Have you had enough yet? I certainly have... and - in a shockingly blunt way - so has Al Hrabosky.

I have put up with Hrabosky on Cardinal broadcasts for as long as I can remember. His slurping makes Linda Lovelace look like an amateur.

But, today he said these words.... "Michael Girsch and John Mozeliak thinks the current roster can win, I don't" Al was also very critical of bullpen management and personnel decisions. He alluded to the power that veterans and their agents have over the Cardinals roster decisions.

Folks, this was an earthquake.

Mag Sierra has EARNED a job on the Cardinals in the same way Vince Coleman was the catalyst for the 1985 Pennant run. Tommy Pham has EARNED a starting job on the Cardinals, as he's clearly their best player by any metric.

Luke Voit has energized the offense at first base. But, he's finding a spot on the bench as the Cardinals are determined to go the Wong Way.

How about a General Manager with some balls who acts on this information and clears some deadwood in July?

How about we cut the cord and get Matt Carpenter the hell out of here? He's born to DH. Oh, but he's got a "team friendly" contract, yadda, yadda, yadda?

More friendly than Luke Voit's?

If we set aside the ego of the "smartest guy in the room", here are 5 things that could be done, but will never happen to make the most of this frustrating season (which is simply a continuation of last season's pratfall)

1) The Cardinals are in desperate need of a dependable middle reliever - along the lines of Andrew Miller in Cleveland. Fortunately, they have one. His name is Luke Weaver. He's lights out in AAA, but I suspect he's being protected from Matheny by Mozeliak who fears Mad Mike will overuse him if he's available.

But, with Mike Leake, post surgery Lance Lynn, and Michael Wacha all being 5 inning pitchers, the need for Weaver in St. Louis has never been greater. He could be the 2006 Adam Wainwright of the 2017 Cardinals. If you can't count on your manager not to "Siegrist" a young arm, how about changing managers? The team desperately needs Weaver to protect leads in the middle innings.

Bring up Weaver and let Siegrist visit Doctor Andrews. I'm certain he can help him get his velocity back.

2) Keep Mag Sierra with the big club. I don't give a damn how much money you paid Stephen Piscotty. That's your ego talking. Play your best players.

3) Play Tommy Pham every day. His defense is ideal in CF or RF. No more LF for Pham.

4) Move Fowler to LF - I don't care what he says. Payroll politics should not come before winning.

5) Bite down hard and pay up for the middle of the order bat you've needed for 3+ years. This will likely involve moving Carpenter - perhaps even a 3 way trade. It will also involve saying Sayonara to Trevor Rosenthal and perhaps more from your farm system. So what? Of course, it would have been "cheaper" to simply trade for Travis Shaw this offseason. With the pitching talent the Cardinals have, that would have been an easy match. But, the smartest guy in the room was too busy with Cecil and Fowler to notice. Besides, if Fowler was hitting leadoff, Matt Carpenter would be that "middle of the order bat" you desperately wish not to pay up to get.

It's pretty clear that the "smartest guy in the room" doesn't want to own his mistakes. If you don't own your mistakes, you'll never be able to address them.

Just STOP this infatuation with the strikeout artist known as Windmill Grichuk. You should have traded this bum after his hot month in 2015.

But, no... you were going to save Dollar Bill all that money and use Windmill as your cleanup hitter and keep payroll down around 40% of team revenues.

How's that working out?

The mistakes keep piling up. And, the decisions based on payroll politics instead of merit have to stop... NOW

Or else you'll end up like Jeff Fisher.

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Re: Cardinals checked in on Stanton

Post by Fat Strat »

dmarx114 wrote:If you want to turn the cardinals into the Marlins, and win 75 games every year, then sure, sell the farm for Stanton.
That's oversimplifying it.

We're in the unique-for-us position of both having quality prospects and being able to acquire quality prospects.

Let's say, for example, that we trade some combination of Oh, Lynn, and Rosenthal at the deadline this year. None of those players by themselves will net us the same kind of package that it would take to acquire Stanton. But, we should be able to get maybe 2-3 really good prospects (maybe 1-2 that are in or have top 100 talent) and 3 or more pretty decent prospects. To get Stanton back, because of his contract, you're probably looking at 1 elite prospect and 2 really good ones.

So, yeah, maybe we have to use up something that you might consider elite -- and that might even come from the MLB level -- but it's not like we have to empty the farm to get Stanton. It might be a net loss of one of our best prospects. That's hardly selling the farm and totally worth it to acquire a talent of Stanton's caliber, even considering the salary.

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Re: Cardinals checked in on Stanton

Post by pioneer98 »

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
MrCrowesGarden wrote:Is it? We're already young but not special.
Youth for youth's sake isn't so beneficial, but it's also worth noting where the current production comes from. Here's the Cardinals best hitters by fWAR this year:

Pham: 29
Gyorko: 28
Carpenter: 31
Fowler: 31
DeJong: 24
Molina: 35

That's half of the guys on the wrong side of 30, and another is DeJong who is more an indictment of the group as a whole than a surefire building block. Having lots of guys like Grichuk, Piscotty, Diaz, and Wong is nice that you don't need to get younger just to tread water and stave off decline, but it doesn't mean that the best players aren't post-prime either.
There are pitchers, too - Martinez, Wacha, Reyes, Weaver, etc

The Cardinals' roster average age is 28.3, which is 12th in MLB. Right in the middle of the pack. The Cubs is 28.2.

I'm with the folks who think that getting better is more important than getting younger right now.

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