Cardinals have lost their Way under Matheny

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Socnorb11
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Re: Cardinals have lost their Way under Matheny

Post by Socnorb11 »

Johnconrad wrote:
jagtrader wrote:The perception around Matheny is really something. He's just a guy. He doesn't move the needle much one way or another and rarely says anything terribly noteworthy. Yet people love to obsess about him. Maybe it's a St. Louis thing. Cardinals fans obsessed about La Russa, too, but at least he was interesting in his eccentricity. Matheny is the generic manager they make up in a video game when they don't have the real manager's permission to use his name.
I think the frustration is likely because he plays a losing hand for far too long.

How long did it take him to remove Oh from closing duties? How many games did it cost the team?

There are numerous examples.

I'd be interested in other examples, but I doubt if this sort of stuff is unique to Matheny.

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CardsofSTL
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Re: Cardinals have lost their Way under Matheny

Post by CardsofSTL »

Johnconrad wrote:
CardsofSTL wrote:
Johnconrad wrote:
I think the frustration is likely because he plays a losing hand for far too long.

How long did it take him to remove Oh from closing duties? How many games did it cost the team?
5 games
None of those would help, eh?
Didn't say that. Just answering a question.

jagtrader
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Re: Cardinals have lost their Way under Matheny

Post by jagtrader »

Maybe we have an Occam's razor situation. The Cardinals are a middling team that should finish between 80-85 wins and is on target to end up there.

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misterManager
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Re: Cardinals have lost their Way under Matheny

Post by misterManager »

To the extent that managers like Showalter have gotten crazy mileage out of cast-offs and failed starters like Brach, Gyvens, Britton (I believe he was a flamed-out starter anyway) and O'day - Matheny has managed almost nothing in terms of that maximization of potential. Whether that's 100% on him or not is up for debate, but I think good usage will always help any arm, even if it means you yank a guy in the eighth like tonight, when Oh was pulled for Lyons late-and-close. Matheny has showed more smarts of late and whether that's just more talent seeping into the roster or his actual changing of strategy to protect leads I think we might be seeing something here. Probably recency bias but I like what he's done with matchups Left-on-Left for a start anyway. Lyons is looking pretty great lately.

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Re: Cardinals have lost their Way under Matheny

Post by jagtrader »

The Cardinals were locked into a bad bullpen structure to start the season. It was Oh, Rosenthal,Siegrist or Cecil for high leverage situations. If those guys struggled, the alternatives were Bowman, Broxton, Socolovich, Lyons, etc. I'm not sure what a manager can do with that. It's not like he had some hotshot fireballers itching for a chance. They stuck with that structure for nearly two months because of options and not wanting to release a veteran. That's a front office blunder.

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Re: Cardinals have lost their Way under Matheny

Post by dmarx114 »

jagtrader wrote:The Cardinals were locked into a bad bullpen structure to start the season. It was Oh, Rosenthal,Siegrist or Cecil for high leverage situations. If those guys struggled, the alternatives were Bowman, Broxton, Socolovich, Lyons, etc. I'm not sure what a manager can do with that. It's not like he had some hotshot fireballers itching for a chance. They stuck with that structure for nearly two months because of options and not wanting to release a veteran. That's a front office blunder.
All true.

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Jocephus
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Re: Cardinals have lost their Way under Matheny

Post by Jocephus »

Fire Matheny
12:44
Why do we not have a standard, more quantifiable way of measuring a manager's impact?

Eno Sarris
12:44
I tried and Matheny was near the bottom or last when it came to: putting his best relievers in the right spots, showing flexability when it came to using relievers in roles, and putting his best players in the right spots in the lineups.

Johnconrad
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Re: Cardinals have lost their Way under Matheny

Post by Johnconrad »

jagtrader wrote:The Cardinals were locked into a bad bullpen structure to start the season. It was Oh, Rosenthal,Siegrist or Cecil for high leverage situations. If those guys struggled, the alternatives were Bowman, Broxton, Socolovich, Lyons, etc. I'm not sure what a manager can do with that. It's not like he had some hotshot fireballers itching for a chance. They stuck with that structure for nearly two months because of options and not wanting to release a veteran. That's a front office blunder.
The bullpen was not in much worse shape than the everyday lineup.

The failures are across the board.

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Jocephus
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Re: Cardinals have lost their Way under Matheny

Post by Jocephus »

In the middle of a late-inning at-bat during an important game at Fenway, umpire Chris Segal called time on his own because he needed a “break.” Molina was fuming and turned to face the man who had been calling questionable balls and dubious strikes all night. Matheny flew out of the dugout. His primary objective was not to confront the umpire, but to come to the defense of his player—to protect his catcher, perhaps the most important player on his team, from being ejected.

The oft-criticized manager accomplished his goal—Molina remained in the game—and then he proceeded to fight for the rest of his team, reportedly yelling at Segal “It’s not your show, man! Nobody is here to watch you!” before he was finally thrown out of the game. It was refreshing to see Matheny, who constantly preaches about urgency, actually show it himself. That’s how you lead a team.
https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/st-louis-c ... -wednesday

and i'm stealing this from a VEB comment on that article
[SHOW]
The night is darkest before the dawn.

Why’s he yelling, VEB?
Because we needed a spark.
He didn’t do anything strategic.

Because he’s the hero St. Louis deserves…but not the one it needs right now.
So we’ll bash him…because he can take it.
Because he’s not our hero.
He’s a handsome leader…a former catcher…
Image

AWvsCBsteeeerike3
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Re: Cardinals have lost their Way under Matheny

Post by AWvsCBsteeeerike3 »

dmarx114 wrote:
jagtrader wrote:The Cardinals were locked into a bad bullpen structure to start the season. It was Oh, Rosenthal,Siegrist or Cecil for high leverage situations. If those guys struggled, the alternatives were Bowman, Broxton, Socolovich, Lyons, etc. I'm not sure what a manager can do with that. It's not like he had some hotshot fireballers itching for a chance. They stuck with that structure for nearly two months because of options and not wanting to release a veteran. That's a front office blunder.
All true.
They lost Reyes right at the beginning too which to be fair probably was a big deal.

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