Oscar Taveras

[Fat Strat]

I don't understand what you're saying. They were proven correct because he struggled to adjust to mlb pitching his first year while still providing ~3WAR despite an 89 OPS+? He's consistently been a pretty good player. If your argument is that Ankiel, Ludwick and Skip were the best outfielders in 2008, okay, I can somewhat see that. But, Skippy provided ~2 WAR in 2008... Rasmus provided ~3 in 2009 despite a bad bat. Overall, he's posted a 108 OPS+. Is your argument that the mlb club was better off without Rasmus in 2008? That they handled him properly (which surely we can all agree they didn't as he's not even with the club anymore due to the way he was handled)?

No, that in '08 he struggled while in AAA despite having a good ST. Then he struggled in '09 at the major league level as a 22 year old. What leads us to believe that Rasmus would have had any chance of success at the MLB level in '08? What leads us to believe that MLB pitchers wouldn't have eaten him for lunch? That the pressure and environment wouldn't have swallowed him whole? That he wouldn't have experienced a setback in his development and lose what little confidence and self-esteem that he had? The Cardinals believed that he wasn't ready. It's pretty clear that he wasn't ready in '08.

Just because Rasmus hit at a little at the MLB level in '09 then he would have hit in '08 at the MLB level... That's not the case. It doesn't matter if the MLB club would have or might have been better with or without Rasmus in '08; we could have run So Taguchi out there and sending Rasmus to Memphis would have still been the right choice. It was definitely better for Rasmus to spend '08 in Memphis regardless of who we had at the MLB level, and we know that by how Rasmus actually did perform in '08, the immaturity he displayed while doing it, and how he hit in '09 (which was just on the edge of showing he was capable of hitting major league pitching).

We act like there are no ramifications to letting a young guy play and learn at the major leagues. That's not the case either.

[AWvsCBsteeeerike3]

I don't understand what you're saying. They were proven correct because he struggled to adjust to mlb pitching his first year while still providing ~3WAR despite an 89 OPS+? He's consistently been a pretty good player. If your argument is that Ankiel, Ludwick and Skip were the best outfielders in 2008, okay, I can somewhat see that. But, Skippy provided ~2 WAR in 2008... Rasmus provided ~3 in 2009 despite a bad bat. Overall, he's posted a 108 OPS+. Is your argument that the mlb club was better off without Rasmus in 2008? That they handled him properly (which surely we can all agree they didn't as he's not even with the club anymore due to the way he was handled)?

No, that in '08 he struggled while in AAA despite having a good ST. Then he struggled in '09 at the major league level as a 22 year old. What leads us to believe that Rasmus would have had any chance of success at the MLB level in '08? What leads us to believe that MLB pitchers wouldn't have eaten him for lunch? That the pressure and environment wouldn't have swallowed him whole? That he wouldn't have experienced a setback in his development and lose what little confidence and self-esteem that he had? The Cardinals believed that he wasn't ready. It's pretty clear that he wasn't ready in '08.

Just because Rasmus hit at a little at the MLB level in '09 then he would have hit in '08 at the MLB level... That's not the case. It doesn't matter if the MLB club would have or might have been better with or without Rasmus in '08; we could have run So Taguchi out there and sending Rasmus to Memphis would have still been the right choice. It was definitely better for Rasmus to spend '08 in Memphis regardless of who we had at the MLB level, and we know that by how Rasmus actually did perform in '08, the immaturity he displayed while doing it, and how he hit in '09 (which was just on the edge of showing he was capable of hitting major league pitching).

We act like there are no ramifications to letting a young guy play and learn at the major leagues. That's not the case either.

There is little to no doubt in my mind that Rasmus' struggles in 08 were due to not wanting to be where he was. He has said so, his dad has said so, he went from a .900+ ops hitter to complete poo.

He had what a ~.750 OPS in the minors that year, then came up in 2009 and posted a ~.810 (115ops+) the first half of the year showing, in contrast to what 08 and overall 09 showed, that he could handle mlb pitching. It also showed he was succeptible to prolonged slumps. A trend that unfortunately continued.

[vinsanity]

There is little to no doubt in my mind that Rasmus' struggles in 08 were due to not wanting to be where he was. He has said so, his dad has said so, he went from a .900+ ops hitter to complete poo.

So does he not want to be in Toronto?

92 ABs: .219 .239 .398 .637

If his 08 ST 100 AB's mean a lot, then his 100 AB's in Toronto shows he's a .637 OPS hitter.

[Fat Strat]

he went from a .900+ ops hitter to complete poo.

He went from being a .900 ops hitter in an extreme hitters park to complete poo in another hitter's park while displaying the immaturity that led him to get sent down in the first place and that caused him to not get called back up again when he could have been.

Let me finish this for you:

in contrast to what 08 and overall 09 showed, that he could handle mlb pitching...

...for a deliberately misleading selected period of time in '09, an entire season after when some people argue he should have already been a full-time starter in the majors.

You're basically arguing that since Rasmus hit for 85 pa's at the major league level (June was his only month well above replacement level as a MLB starting OF'er) while suffering through prolonged slumps then he definitely could have done that or better in '08 and should have been given the chance. Well, to me that logic is just one step removed from suggesting that he could have done it in '07 instead of wasting his time in Springfield after he proved he could hit at the A level. Or even suggesting that there's no need for players to spend time in the minors at all.

There's a steep learning curve that these players are going through -- the transition from rookie ball to A ball. From A ball to AA. From AA/AAA to the majors... there are significant developmental milestones that have to be met at each level or the player won't survive the next move. Talent will take you so far, but for significant prospects, the minors are there to hone those talents into repeatable skills and strategies that will eventually work at the MLB level. Whether we're talking about Rasmus or Taveras or Adams or even Allen Craig... patience and time in the minor leagues are critical to their development as professional ballplayers and their success as major leaguers.

[AWvsCBsteeeerike3]

There is little to no doubt in my mind that Rasmus' struggles in 08 were due to not wanting to be where he was. He has said so, his dad has said so, he went from a .900+ ops hitter to complete poo.

So does he not want to be in Toronto?

92 ABs: .219 .239 .398 .637

If his 08 ST 100 AB's mean a lot, then his 100 AB's in Toronto shows he's a .637 OPS hitter.

Where did I ever say he doesn't want to be in Toronto?

Strat was saying he didn't belong in the majors because a year later he put up an 89 ops+ showing he was barely ready then to hit MLB pitchers. I showed the first half 2009 he put up a ~115ops+ showing he was ready to hit MLB pitchers.

2008 he played like [expletive] because he was pouting.

What does any of that have to do with 92 PA in Toronto? He was hitting like [expletive] in StL, he continued to hit like [expletive] in Toronto. Sometimes playes slump, it's been known to happen.

[vinsanity]

There is little to no doubt in my mind that Rasmus' struggles in 08 were due to not wanting to be where he was.

Strat was saying he didn't belong in the majors because a year later he put up an 89 ops+ showing he was barely ready then to hit MLB pitchers. I showed the first half 2009 he put up a ~115ops+ showing he was ready to hit MLB pitchers.

I was being flippant. You're saying he should have been up in 2008 based on his ST performance right? Which is 100 PA's no? And then say he sucked in AAA because he was pouting and didn't want to be there. So you're giving weight to those 100 PA's.

He's been in Toronto for near 100 PA's and is hitting like [expletive], you're right. But if 100 ST PA's proved he was ready in 08, doesn't 100 PA's in Tor prove he's either not a good player or pouting there too?

Or is it possible his 100 ST PA's are the (meaningless) outlier and what he did in 08/09 showed that he needed some time to develop?

[AWvsCBsteeeerike3]

he went from a .900+ ops hitter to complete poo.

He went from being a .900 ops hitter in an extreme hitters park to complete poo in another hitter's park while displaying the immaturity that led him to get sent down in the first place and that caused him to not get called back up again when he could have been.

Let me finish this for you:

in contrast to what 08 and overall 09 showed, that he could handle mlb pitching...

...for a deliberately misleading selected period of time in '09, an entire season after when some people argue he should have already been a full-time starter in the majors.

You're basically arguing that since Rasmus hit for 85 pa's at the major league level (June was his only month well above replacement level as a MLB starting OF'er) while suffering through prolonged slumps then he definitely could have done that or better in '08 and should have been given the chance. Well, to me that logic is just one step removed from suggesting that he could have done it in '07 instead of wasting his time in Springfield after he proved he could hit at the A level. Or even suggesting that there's no need for players to spend time in the minors at all.

He put up that first half ops over 300 PAs in 2009. I don't know that's necessarily an arbitrary amount of numbers. If you were going to argue he wasn't ready for MLB pitching in 2009, I'd 100% disagree. He showed his colors though, no doubt. It's a trend that has continued as well.

I never suggested he was ready in 07. I don't know why you're trying to say I did.

My point, again, is very simple. Rasmus should have been playing with StL in 2008. He was the best option at CF and there's nothing that shows he wasn't other than the temper tantrum he threw all year in the minors. I don't think holding someone in the minors is going to cure their head, fwiw. If they were holding him back at that point already because of mental makeup, then they should have traded him then. Or traded their mental case for Ellsbury last year. Or made one of another umpteen million deals over the years he could have been the center piece for.

[AWvsCBsteeeerike3]

I was being flippant. You're saying he should have been up in 2008 based on his ST performance right? Which is 100 PA's no?

I did mention it earlier in this thread, but no. His ST performance on top of his superior skillset to Ankiel and Skip is the reason he should have been up.

[Fat Strat]

My point, again, is very simple. Rasmus should have been playing with StL in 2008. He was the best option at CF and there's nothing that shows he wasn't other than the temper tantrum he threw all year in the minors. I don't think holding someone in the minors is going to cure their head, fwiw. If they were holding him back at that point already because of mental makeup, then they should have traded him then. Or traded their mental case for Ellsbury last year. Or made one of another umpteen million deals over the years he could have been the center piece for.

You keep saying that the Cards "held him back" and suggesting it's because they were concerned about his mental makeup. You're missing my entire argument. Mental makeup, hitting the baseball, defense... there's nothing about what happened in '08 that suggests he would have been able to succeed at the MLB level that season. And his limited success in '09 (85 above replacement level pa's) doesn't prove in any way shape or form that he would have been able to do that in '08. You're taking 100 pa's in ST and statements about his pouting and fabricating your own reality from them that the info we have doesn't support.

Take Allen Craig as a for example. Last year he looked lost at the MLB level. The dude looked like he couldn't hit his way out of a paper bag. This year he's raking. Why? Because his development this season has progressed to a point where he was capable and comfortable hitting major league pitchers. Before that -- just one season -- he was obviously completely unprepared for and uncomfortable with what he was facing, and that despite progressing steadily through every level of the minors and raking every step of the way.

That's what I'm getting at with Rasmus. What he did in '09 at the MLB level -- the limited and halting success that it was -- says absolutely nothing about what he would have done in '08 at the MLB level, nor does it speak to the damage that could have been done to Rasmus' career had the club attempted to push him in '08 to the MLB level. And it's that fear that drives every GM in baseball to give their prospects significant time in the minor leagues and treating them with kid gloves in terms of playing time, situational use, and appearance limits when they do get to the majors.

'09 and the progress he displayed in '10 show that Rasmus was ready when he was given his change, and the club gave him the right amount of exposure (i.e. kid gloves) in order for him to learn to make the adjustments that will keep him at the MLB level and give him a chance to become an impact player -- a reality that even now, 3 full seasons after when you suggest he should have been given a shot, still completely eludes him.

[AWvsCBsteeeerike3]

You keep saying that the Cards "held him back" and suggesting it's because they were concerned about his mental makeup. You're missing my entire argument. Mental makeup, hitting the baseball, defense... there's nothing about what happened in '08 that suggests he would have been able to succeed at the MLB level that season. And his limited success in '09 (85 above replacement level pa's) doesn't prove in any way shape or form that he would have been able to do that in '08. You're taking 100 pa's in ST and statements about his pouting and fabricating your own reality from them that the info we have doesn't support.

Take Allen Craig as a for example. Last year he looked lost at the MLB level. The dude looked like he couldn't hit his way out of a paper bag. This year he's raking. Why? Because his development this season has progressed to a point where he was capable and comfortable hitting major league pitchers. Before that -- just one season -- he was obviously completely unprepared for and uncomfortable with what he was facing, and that despite progressing steadily through every level of the minors and raking every step of the way.

That's what I'm getting at with Rasmus. What he did in '09 at the MLB level -- the limited and halting success that it was -- says absolutely nothing about what he would have done in '08 at the MLB level, nor does it speak to the damage that could have been done to Rasmus' career had the club attempted to push him in '08 to the MLB level. And it's that fear that drives every GM in baseball to give their prospects significant time in the minor leagues and treating them with kid gloves in terms of playing time, situational use, and appearance limits when they do get to the majors.

'09 and the progress he displayed in '10 show that Rasmus was ready when he was given his change, and the club gave him the right amount of exposure (i.e. kid gloves) in order for him to learn to make the adjustments that will keep him at the MLB level and give him a chance to become an impact player -- a reality that even now, 3 full seasons after when you suggest he should have been given a shot, still completely eludes him.

He was above replacement level - despite an 89 ops+, mind you - for the entirety of 2009 by a full win and he got worse as the year wore on.

Answer these questions and I'll be satisfied and not argue anymore because this is going nowhere.

What would have been a better in 2008: Skip LF, Ankiel CF, Ludwick RF or Ankiel RF/LF, Ludwick LF/RF, Rasmus CF?

Name 1 player other than Ankiel that was ruined by being brought up too early?