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PostPosted: December 27 18, 3:37 pm 
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Good review of Sunderland til I die, with a contrast to a docuseries on Amazon about Man City's run last year.

It underscores what I liked about the former.
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/football-league/sunderland-til-i-die-netflix-series-a8682691.html


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PostPosted: December 27 18, 3:42 pm 
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Freed Roger wrote:
Does EFL have a quota % of English players per team?

Yes, but there are ways to get around them, they aren't super well defined.

Freed Roger wrote:
Is there an easy primer on how players from different leagues (non-EFL) get moved? When Man U gets a player from a La Liga team, is it just a deal between the player and Man U, or is La Liga somehow bought out.?

You asked the right kind of question on a day where I have nothing to do at work. Strap yourself in. I'll go ahead an embolden and underline the short answer so you don't have to read the rest if you don't want to.

Clubs aren't franchises, they're a long way from their origins, but they're still technically independent clubs. Much like very early baseball teams (during roughly the same time period of like 1860-1900), they were formed around jobs, mostly. Arsenal for example were dudes who worked at the royal arsenal in london. When they (don't ask me who "they" are) formed the Football Association, which is now the governing body of English soccer, they codified the rules for the first time. Originally the game called football evolved out of PE classes at public schools. The school called Rugby invented a version of football where you could pick the ball up and pass it laterally or backwards. To distinguish the two main forms of football, everyone called that version Rugby, after the school where it was invented, and the other form of football (the one we know today) "Association Footbal." Aka soccer: aSOCC(ER)iation. Eventually they just stopped calling it soccer when the sport of rugby evolved to be so different from football that they just called one football and the other rugby.

While all this evolution is happening, the game moved out of the school yard and into the aforementioned after work leagues. Crucial to the evolution of both baseball and soccer was the labor union movement. The labor unions gave us weekends and regular working hours. This allowed for more time that needed to be passed outside of work and the pastimes of modern sport exploded. The formation of leagues happened well after the establishment of clubs and international exhibitions (england v scotland was the first). So the football association created leagues but because the clubs were formed independently and prior to the leagues they play in today and are not league franchises. They're totally independent entities so the fees associated with the transfer of a player's negotiation rights and contract are directly from club to club. So if Man United buys Christian Pulisic from Borussia Dortmund this summer for $60,000,000, my beloved son, Christian, gets 10% of that, his agent gets 10% of that 10% (10% is a common figure but actual percentages are part of the contract negotiations) and Borussia Dortmund gets the rest. They can pocket it or use it to reinvest in other players or their development infastructure.

So the reason I type all of that out isn't just because it's absolutely dead at work and I have nothing better to do. It's also to explain why player movement is so different. Like baseball, free agency came much later. They had their version of Curt Flood in a belgian dude named Jean-Marc Bosman. Before that though, club owners had exclusive rights to players and could buy and sell their rights as they pleased. Unlike baseball though, there are many, many professional soccer leagues so the players didn't just move from team to team, they moved from league to league, often to different countries with different football associations. Real Madrid is Real Madrid because they found legendary players outside of Spain. Their scounting in Argentina specifically is like the original moneyball. They brought in players no one had ever heard of like Alfredo diStefano in the late 50's and created a dynasty that carries on today.

Because of those differences (not franchises, less ownership collusion and player movement to different leagues), player trades do happen, but very rarely. I'm sure there's been a more recent one, but the highest profile one that I can remember was when Inter Milan sent Zlatan Ibrahimovic to Barcelona for Samuel E'to and cash considerations. Those trades are rare and the easiest way to move players is to just sell their contract rights outright. I think another, less discussed reason they "sell" players rather than trade them is the graft that exists in the agent game. If you trade a player straight up, no money changes hands. If you sell a player for $100,000,000, then their agent pockets their 10% fee of that, which is considerable. Agents have a ton of sway, especially with the multitude of options for their clients. Rather than 32 franchises that can pay their client, there are literally hundreds of clubs that could pay them, so they have more options to maneuver and cut deals. Because of that they prefer those deals to involve money rather than exchanging players, so they can take their cut. Imagine if Scott Boras could bid hundreds of clubs against each other.


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PostPosted: December 27 18, 4:29 pm 
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thrill wrote:
Freed Roger wrote:
Does EFL have a quota % of English players per team?

Yes, but there are ways to get around them, they aren't super well defined.

Freed Roger wrote:
Is there an easy primer on how players from different leagues (non-EFL) get moved? When Man U gets a player from a La Liga team, is it just a deal between the player and Man U, or is La Liga somehow bought out.?

You asked the right kind of question on a day where I have nothing to do at work. Strap yourself in. I'll go ahead an embolden and underline the short answer so you don't have to read the rest if you don't want to.

C
Spoiler: show
lubs aren't franchises, they're a long way from their origins, but they're still technically independent clubs. Much like very early baseball teams (during roughly the same time period of like 1860-1900), they were formed around jobs, mostly. Arsenal for example were dudes who worked at the royal arsenal in london. When they (don't ask me who "they" are) formed the Football Association, which is now the governing body of English soccer, they codified the rules for the first time. Originally the game called football evolved out of PE classes at public schools. The school called Rugby invented a version of football where you could pick the ball up and pass it laterally or backwards. To distinguish the two main forms of football, everyone called that version Rugby, after the school where it was invented, and the other form of football (the one we know today) "Association Footbal." Aka soccer: aSOCC(ER)iation. Eventually they just stopped calling it soccer when the sport of rugby evolved to be so different from football that they just called one football and the other rugby.

While all this evolution is happening, the game moved out of the school yard and into the aforementioned after work leagues. Crucial to the evolution of both baseball and soccer was the labor union movement. The labor unions gave us weekends and regular working hours. This allowed for more time that needed to be passed outside of work and the pastimes of modern sport exploded. The formation of leagues happened well after the establishment of clubs and international exhibitions (england v scotland was the first). So the football association created leagues but because the clubs were formed independently and prior to the leagues they play in today and are not league franchises. They're totally independent entities so the fees associated with the transfer of a player's negotiation rights and contract are directly from club to club. So if Man United buys Christian Pulisic from Borussia Dortmund this summer for $60,000,000, my beloved son, Christian, gets 10% of that, his agent gets 10% of that 10% (10% is a common figure but actual percentages are part of the contract negotiations) and Borussia Dortmund gets the rest. They can pocket it or use it to reinvest in other players or their development infastructure.

So the reason I type all of that out isn't just because it's absolutely dead at work and I have nothing better to do. It's also to explain why player movement is so different. Like baseball, free agency came much later. They had their version of Curt Flood in a belgian dude named Jean-Marc Bosman. Before that though, club owners had exclusive rights to players and could buy and sell their rights as they pleased. Unlike baseball though, there are many, many professional soccer leagues so the players didn't just move from team to team, they moved from league to league, often to different countries with different football associations. Real Madrid is Real Madrid because they found legendary players outside of Spain. Their scounting in Argentina specifically is like the original moneyball. They brought in players no one had ever heard of like Alfredo diStefano in the late 50's and created a dynasty that carries on today.

Because of those differences (not franchises, less ownership collusion and player movement to different leagues), player trades do happen, but very rarely. I'm sure there's been a more recent one, but the highest profile one that I can remember was when Inter Milan sent Zlatan Ibrahimovic to Barcelona for Samuel E'to and cash considerations. Those trades are rare and the easiest way to move players is to just sell their contract rights outright. I think another, less discussed reason they "sell" players rather than trade them is the graft that exists in the agent game. If you trade a player straight up, no money changes hands. If you sell a player for $100,000,000, then their agent pockets their 10% fee of that, which is considerable. Agents have a ton of sway, especially with the multitude of options for their clients. Rather than 32 franchises that can pay their client, there are literally hundreds of clubs that could pay them, so they have more options to maneuver and cut deals. Because of that they prefer those deals to involve money rather than exchanging players, so they can take their cut. Imagine if Scott Boras could bid hundreds of clubs against each other.

Wow, Thanks. Any good books to recommend for further reading on the history?

Some followups on player movements and buying selling contract. Suppose the same scenario existed for baseball. What would be the progression for Jordan Hicks? As the developing team, I presume the Cardinals would have him at a relative discount initially. But I assume they'd have to raise his contract almost immediately to keep him, and/or to make a nice profit if Cardinals decide to cash out on him. What options would the Cardinals have if the Yankees came in and offered 4 times what his current contract was worth? What say would Hicks have in his being dealt?

I haven't fully thought it out, wrt positives and negatives to the soccer club systems versus the franchise systems we have in US pro sports. Soccer closer to free enterprise. How in the hell do shallow pocket/small market teams compete?
Positives for players to get their value earlier. Negative is it sounds like teams with endless money win more often though, stockpiling and loaning players out etc. It sounds like the fans lose some without as much collusion/cost control- cost of tickets etc.

Don't feel obligated to answer. I will look some of it up.


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PostPosted: December 27 18, 8:52 pm 
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Your assumptions are correct. Shallow pocket teams don't compete.


Your Hicks example would probably go like this:

Yankees make offer of $10 mil for the rights to Hicks. The cards, being both historic and current championship rivals of the Yankees turn down the offer. After all, we're borderline contenders and Hicks is an important part of that.

At this point the Yankees either come with a bigger offer or go looking elsewhere. Meanwhile Jordan's agent knows about the offer and goes to his client. They either decide to stand pat and let Jordan focus on the upcoming season or they then go to management to discuss renegotiating Jordan's contract to an amount where he's happy to stay, or the cards don't budge. At this point Jordan can either go back to work or make it known he wants to go to the Yankees. If he demands the transfer, it's probably because after the transfer he'll negotiate a new deal with better terms in NY. The cards can in turn did their heels in and bench him or let him play while unhappy or they agree to terms with the Yankees.

Free agency is also way less of a thing in soccer. A Bryce Harper analog like Kykian Mbappe would never hit the end of his contract because he'd either be sold for a mega fortune or get extensions early at favorable salary terms.


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PostPosted: December 28 18, 8:10 am 
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Freed Roger do you think I could convince Mrs. Hoot to watch Sunderland Till I Die with me? She's more of a fan of the sport by association and enjoys going to matches but I don't know if she would be interested in a full docuseries about it or not. Is there enough story in it to entertain someone with limited interest?


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PostPosted: December 28 18, 9:57 am 
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It is worth a shot. First episode is the slowest, preseason. Some interesting characters. only 35 min long episodes. My wife wasn't too annoyed by it.


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PostPosted: December 28 18, 9:58 am 
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Freed Roger wrote:
It is worth a shot. First episode is the slowest, preseason. Some interesting characters. only 35 min long episodes. My wife wasn't too annoyed by it.

And really, that’s the best you can hope for.


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PostPosted: December 28 18, 5:28 pm 
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Looks like my hypothetical valuation of pulisic was dead on:

https://www.fearthewall.com/2018/12/28/ ... league-bvb


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PostPosted: December 28 18, 8:56 pm 
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thrill wrote:
Looks like my hypothetical valuation of pulisic was dead on:

https://www.fearthewall.com/2018/12/28/ ... league-bvb

Not official, as transfer period starts next week. what do they mean by "summer" in that article? they can't be agreeing to a deal that far off, right?


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PostPosted: January 2 19, 7:59 am 
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Freed Roger wrote:
thrill wrote:
Looks like my hypothetical valuation of pulisic was dead on:

https://www.fearthewall.com/2018/12/28/ ... league-bvb

Not official, as transfer period starts next week. what do they mean by "summer" in that article? they can't be agreeing to a deal that far off, right?

It's official. And yeah, he's being loaned back to Dortmund for the rest of the season. Dortmund really cleaned up here. 25th largest transfer fee ever, they keep him for what's looking like an inevitable title run, he's not going to Bayern, and they already have his replacement in Thorgen Hazard.


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