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PostPosted: June 13 08, 10:45 am 
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AdmiralKird wrote:
But My God, I mean, if you just look here: http://icasualties.org/oif/ during the past 2 months we have not had as low of troop casulties for May/June, EVER, even since 2003. Last year, in May, over 4 soldiers were dying a day, and about 3 and a half in June. This year, it was less than soldier a day in May, and 1.15 in June (although this month isn't over). But just look at the changes, its remarkable. I don't like to play the numbers with peoples lives, but the its the only easy way for us to fairly evaluate the situation, and it has been going a lot better than what people probably know. You can debate going there all you want, Bush is terrible, etc, but a solution for the current situation is insurmountably more valuable than political red vs blue bickering.


Not the kind of solutions that McCain is dealing in. America doesn't want this war, it was brought under false pretenses, and continued military presence in Iraq just inflames the anti-American sentiment throughout the region. We shouldn't be congratulating ourselves for only losing one soldier a day in a war we shouldn't be in, we should be ending the war.


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PostPosted: June 13 08, 10:50 am 
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cpebbles wrote:
AdmiralKird wrote:
But My God, I mean, if you just look here: http://icasualties.org/oif/ during the past 2 months we have not had as low of troop casulties for May/June, EVER, even since 2003. Last year, in May, over 4 soldiers were dying a day, and about 3 and a half in June. This year, it was less than soldier a day in May, and 1.15 in June (although this month isn't over). But just look at the changes, its remarkable. I don't like to play the numbers with peoples lives, but the its the only easy way for us to fairly evaluate the situation, and it has been going a lot better than what people probably know. You can debate going there all you want, Bush is terrible, etc, but a solution for the current situation is insurmountably more valuable than political red vs blue bickering.


Not the kind of solutions that McCain is dealing in. America doesn't want this war, it was brought under false pretenses, and continued military presence in Iraq just inflames the anti-American sentiment throughout the region. We shouldn't be congratulating ourselves for only losing one soldier a day in a war we shouldn't be in, we should be ending the war.


No, you finish the job.


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PostPosted: June 13 08, 10:52 am 
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letsgocards89 wrote:
cpebbles wrote:
AdmiralKird wrote:
But My God, I mean, if you just look here: http://icasualties.org/oif/ during the past 2 months we have not had as low of troop casulties for May/June, EVER, even since 2003. Last year, in May, over 4 soldiers were dying a day, and about 3 and a half in June. This year, it was less than soldier a day in May, and 1.15 in June (although this month isn't over). But just look at the changes, its remarkable. I don't like to play the numbers with peoples lives, but the its the only easy way for us to fairly evaluate the situation, and it has been going a lot better than what people probably know. You can debate going there all you want, Bush is terrible, etc, but a solution for the current situation is insurmountably more valuable than political red vs blue bickering.


Not the kind of solutions that McCain is dealing in. America doesn't want this war, it was brought under false pretenses, and continued military presence in Iraq just inflames the anti-American sentiment throughout the region. We shouldn't be congratulating ourselves for only losing one soldier a day in a war we shouldn't be in, we should be ending the war.


No, you finish the job.


Define "finish" and "job".


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PostPosted: June 13 08, 11:02 am 
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maddash wrote:
letsgocards89 wrote:
cpebbles wrote:
AdmiralKird wrote:
But My God, I mean, if you just look here: http://icasualties.org/oif/ during the past 2 months we have not had as low of troop casulties for May/June, EVER, even since 2003. Last year, in May, over 4 soldiers were dying a day, and about 3 and a half in June. This year, it was less than soldier a day in May, and 1.15 in June (although this month isn't over). But just look at the changes, its remarkable. I don't like to play the numbers with peoples lives, but the its the only easy way for us to fairly evaluate the situation, and it has been going a lot better than what people probably know. You can debate going there all you want, Bush is terrible, etc, but a solution for the current situation is insurmountably more valuable than political red vs blue bickering.


Not the kind of solutions that McCain is dealing in. America doesn't want this war, it was brought under false pretenses, and continued military presence in Iraq just inflames the anti-American sentiment throughout the region. We shouldn't be congratulating ourselves for only losing one soldier a day in a war we shouldn't be in, we should be ending the war.


No, you finish the job.


Define "finish" and "job".


50 bases permanently in place in Iraq.

Interestingly enough, Iraq has broken off discussions with the U.S. about a long-term security agreement that would keep U.S. troops there past the U.N.'s Dec 31st mandate.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080613/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_us_3


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PostPosted: June 13 08, 3:45 pm 
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cpebbles wrote:
AdmiralKird wrote:
But My God, I mean, if you just look here: http://icasualties.org/oif/ during the past 2 months we have not had as low of troop casulties for May/June, EVER, even since 2003. Last year, in May, over 4 soldiers were dying a day, and about 3 and a half in June. This year, it was less than soldier a day in May, and 1.15 in June (although this month isn't over). But just look at the changes, its remarkable. I don't like to play the numbers with peoples lives, but the its the only easy way for us to fairly evaluate the situation, and it has been going a lot better than what people probably know. You can debate going there all you want, Bush is terrible, etc, but a solution for the current situation is insurmountably more valuable than political red vs blue bickering.


Not the kind of solutions that McCain is dealing in. America doesn't want this war, it was brought under false pretenses, and continued military presence in Iraq just inflames the anti-American sentiment throughout the region. We shouldn't be congratulating ourselves for only losing one soldier a day in a war we shouldn't be in, we should be ending the war.


What Pebs says is exactly what I'm trying to explain in last line of my quote. A lot of people are very, very bitter for our reasons of going over there (bad intel + Bush wanting to create a Middle eastern democracy). Your beliefs are fine, but it is a problem when you and many others mix the over-bitterness with trying to find a solution. You can't find the best solution when your mind is clouded full of hatred for being there, its just not smart decision-making. A lot of the 'just leave sentiment' is focused at the past five years, rather than the future. People are aggrieved at the last five years and just want to wipe that from history, so much that they think leaving now might someway atone for that, but there is no way to atone for the fact we shouldn't be in for this war.

What we need is to find a realistic to solution so that we can leave with AT LEAST leaving the region in a condition to how it was before we left it, you can't just leave them in tatters. The chief reason they hate us is because how we get involved over there for our own selfish reasons, exploit them, screw up their lives, then leave without fixing what we've done. A lot of this was done in World War II, Afghanistan (80's), cutting away their land to form Israel, and how we used them for cheap oil but never gave them anything back. If we leave now we're just damning ourself, letting history repeat itself, but it doesn't have to be this way. The only way to amend what we've done is to leave Iraq better than we left it.


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PostPosted: June 13 08, 4:29 pm 
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It is neither our responsibility nor our right to stay in Iraq until they have adapted to a form of government that we find acceptable. Will Iraq finally emerge as a Shiite theocracy if we leave? Yes, probably, as we supported Saddam Hussein's regime for more than a decade to prevent that inevitability. If that is what the Iraqi people choose, we need to accept that.

If there is one lesson to be learned from Vietnam, it's that America can't stay in an unjust war just to preserve national pride. Iraq doesn't want us there, Iraq's neighbors don't want us there, the international community doesn't want us there, and now the American people don't want us there. We need to withdraw from Iraq and work with other nations to improve their quality of life through humanitarianism, not militarism. America's detractors have a very valid point about our imperialistic goals. Building military bases or a prolonged occupation is not to leave Iraqis better off, it's to insure that they conform to our wishes for the region.


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PostPosted: June 13 08, 4:51 pm 
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cpebbles wrote:
It is neither our responsibility nor our right to stay in Iraq until they have adapted to a form of government that we find acceptable. Will Iraq finally emerge as a Shiite theocracy if we leave? Yes, probably, as we supported Saddam Hussein's regime for more than a decade to prevent that inevitability. If that is what the Iraqi people choose, we need to accept that.


It is our responsibility after destroying their national defense and infastracture that we rebuild it and provide security so that no aggressive nations or militaristic ambitious groups funded by said nations compromise their sovereignty. Where do you think they're getting all these weapons and money? And being the ones to topple their previous gov, it is not our responsibility to tell them what to do, but to ensure that after we leave it is not going to fall to peices.

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If there is one lesson to be learned from Vietnam, it's that America can't stay in an unjust war just to preserve national pride. Iraq doesn't want us there, Iraq's neighbors don't want us there, the international community doesn't want us there, and now the American people don't want us there. We need to withdraw from Iraq and work with other nations to improve their quality of life through humanitarianism, not militarism. America's detractors have a very valid point about our imperialistic goals. Building military bases or a prolonged occupation is not to leave Iraqis better off, it's to insure that they conform to our wishes for the region.


Iraq's neighbors don't want us there? The second I start following the wishes of Iran you will be the first to know. I agree that fifty bases is excessive, but I'd like to see the numbers of how many of those would turn from permanent bases to Rammstein if we were to leave. I'm suspicious permanent simply means non-mobile in military context, not 100 year long term bases, and numbers are being skewed.

To me this isn't about pride, its about not leaving the child alone with a wolf beside it. I'm very wary of a situation where Obama opens talks with Iran, Ahmadinejad stalls for time, waits 'til our troops leave, then flood over the border and creates a S h i t e super-state.


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PostPosted: June 13 08, 5:03 pm 
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You're really buying the Bush claim (Which we are still waiting for proof of) that Iran is the major supplier of the Sunni insurgents that are rebelling against the Shiite-controlled government in Iraq? I wouldn't have thought it possible for anyone even familiar with the term "Shiite" to believe that.

This is not leaving a child with a wolf, it's leaving a creature that is 65% wolf next to one that's 90% wolf. I'm no fan of theocracies, but again it is neither our responsibility nor our right to force democracy on Iraq, especially when it's increasingly appearing that our plan for doing so is to next invade Iran and do the same there, repeating the process throughout the middle east until one of us runs out of lives to waste in the effort.


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PostPosted: June 13 08, 5:20 pm 
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cpebbles wrote:
You're really buying the Bush claim (Which we are still waiting for proof of) that Iran is the major supplier of the Sunni insurgents that are rebelling against the Shiite-controlled government in Iraq? I wouldn't have thought it possible for anyone even familiar with the term "Shiite" to believe that.


Quote:
"We have weapons that we know through serial numbers … that trace back to Iran," Lt. Gen. Raymond Odierno said in an interview with USA TODAY.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington ... iran_x.htm

"The president of Iran pledged to Prime Minister Maliki during a recent meeting that he would stop the flow of weapons, the training, the funding and the directing of these militia extremists that have been such a huge problem really for Iraq," Gen Petraeus said.

America accuses the Iranian regime of training, financing and supplying insurgent groups that have killed thousands of its troops, and untold numbers of civilians in Iraq.

US military officials in Baghdad have steadily upped public pressure on Iran by putting captured Iranian-made munitions on display.

Rear Admiral Mark Fox, a coalition spokesman, announced that "several" Misagh-1 Iranian-made missiles had been seized by US troops. It was the latest in a series of such revelations in the last two weeks.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:lC ... cd=2&gl=us


They asked for a democracy and 65% or so turned out to the voting booths for their first election. I do agree with you that Iraq probably isn't ready for a democracy. Development of society goes through cycles, and right now they're trying to completely skip feudalism. But if thats what they want and it takes time then we deserve to give them that time instead of telling them how to create their government. They still want a democracy, they just can't agree on anything.


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PostPosted: June 13 08, 5:52 pm 
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I already read that article. Iran has never admitted that the Iranian government is doing this, and in fact they have vehemently denied it. Ahmadinejad acknowledged to the Iraqis that much of the insurgents' support passes through Iran (Naturally, considering it lies between Iraq and Afghanistan) and has agreed to make further efforts to stop it. It's quite natural that some Iranian arms would have made their way into Iraq. It's no secret that they were supplying the Shiite militias when the country was splintered during the early stages of the war.

Incidentally, you did hear what happened when the U.S. decided to finally show reporters their proof that the roadside bombs insurgents were using were made with Iranian munitions? Turned out it was a mistake by an Iraqi army commander and that none of them actually were Iranian.


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