GatewayRedbirds.com

A Message Board Dedicated to Discussing St. Louis Cardinals Baseball!
It is currently December 7 19, 9:51 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 230 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 19, 20, 21, 22, 23
Author Message
PostPosted: September 26 16, 2:58 pm 
Offline
Consider him admonished
User avatar

Joined: March 25 15, 9:59 am
Posts: 8268
Location: Charleston, SC via Arkansas
Schlich wrote:
Tim wrote:
Schlich wrote:
wart57 wrote:
Like most of society today - perception is more important than facts. So, when I said something about lazy people - the fact was, I was referring specifically to lazy people - not race, but because someone perceived it to mean something racist, it must be racist. I am very new to conservatism. I have been a Democrat all my life, I voted for Dukakis, and Clinton twice, and for Gore and then John Kerry. I don't know the idea that the word lazy can mean anything other than lazy.

My apologies to anyone I offended.


you're the one making this about something it isn't. No one was "offended" here. Nobody even knows what comment about lazy people it even is that you were referring to. The one and only point that was being made is that sometimes "poor people are just lazy" is historically dog-whistle coding for racist campaigning, and that conservatives shouldn't take personal offense when that point gets brought up and pretend like you're being called racist, which is exactly what you just did.

I don't consider myself naive, but I have to admit, I had never thought "poor people are lazy" was any type of dog whistle. And I definitely think words like "thug" are definite dog whistles.


The racism at the heart of the Reagan presidency

Lee Atwater wrote:
You start out in 1954 by saying, “N—, n—, n—.” [Editor’s note: The actual word used by Atwater has been replaced with “N—” for the purposes of this article.] By 1968 you can’t say “n—” — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states’ rights and all that stuff. You’re getting so abstract now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I’m not saying that. But I’m saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me—because obviously sitting around saying, “We want to cut taxes and we want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “N—, n—.” So anyway you look at it, race is coming on the back burner.


Quote:
Reagan also trumpeted his racial appeals in blasts against welfare cheats. On the stump, Reagan repeatedly invoked a story of a “Chicago welfare queen” with “eighty names, thirty addresses, [and] twelve Social Security cards [who] is collecting veteran’s benefits on four non-existing deceased husbands. She’s got Medicaid, getting food stamps, and she is collecting welfare under each of her names. Her tax-free cash income is over $150,000.” Often, Reagan placed his mythical welfare queen behind the wheel of a Cadillac, tooling around in flashy splendor. Beyond propagating the stereotypical image of a lazy, larcenous black woman ripping off society’s generosity without remorse, Reagan also implied

another stereotype, this one about whites: they were the workers, the tax payers, the persons playing by the rules and struggling to make ends meet while brazen minorities partied with their hard-earned tax dollars. More directly placing the white voter in the story, Reagan frequently elicited supportive outrage by criticizing the food stamp program as helping “some young fellow ahead of you to buy a T-bone steak” while “you were waiting in line to buy hamburger.” This was the toned-down version. When he first field-tested the message in the South, that “young fellow” was more particularly described as a “strapping young buck.” The epithet “buck” has long been used to conjure the threatening image of a physically powerful black man often one who defies white authority and who lusts for white women. When Reagan used the term “strapping young buck,” his whistle shifted dangerously toward the fully audible range. “Some young fellow” was less overtly racist and so carried less risk of censure, and worked just as well to provoke a sense of white victimization.

Thanks.

As others have said, different meanings for different people I suppose. I was lucky to have a two parent, middle class, protestant, lifestyle in southern Arkansas. Parents were southern Democrats. Dad was lucky enough to go to Clinton's inauguration in 1992 with a family friend. Never heard the N word uttered in my house, probably because he grew up dirt poor, without a father and had to play little league with the black kids. Only after he pitched a no hitter, did the rich white kids want him on their team. He begged my grandma (who did the 2 jobs, single mom things, no welfare) and she said no way. It made him a better person and I like to think me as well.

Much like Wart, in high school I worked in a grocery store. There are no African Americans in my town, so all those eating steak and on welfare were white.
/cool story bro


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 26 16, 3:13 pm 
Offline
Don't tone police me bro!
User avatar

Joined: July 1 06, 7:24 pm
Posts: 10516
Location: Lost in the Cloud
themiddle54 wrote:
Leroy wrote:
Butt-hurt isn't a slur. Not at all.


It's not. It refers to a child who is upset and has hurt feelings over being spanked.

As per my norm, I have a link to back that up instead of just bandying that opinion around.


Hm. I always interpreted it the other way. Nevermind then.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 26 16, 3:22 pm 
Offline
just can't quit you.
User avatar

Joined: April 18 06, 4:33 pm
Posts: 24841
Location: Lost
Arthur Dent wrote:
wart57 wrote:
I worked in grocery stores when I was in college. I saw first hand people buying steak and junk food and roasts with food stamps. The store I worked at had very few African Americans who shopped there so the people I saw paying with food stamps were white. I remember vividly some not very cleanly woman screaming at her kid how they could not afford to buy her child a candy bar, she then paid for her food with food stamps, and then dropped $30 cash on cigs and alcohol. My family was lucky to have enough money to buy hamburger helper and ground beef - in fact my mom always made hamburger helper with only 1/2 lb of beef instead of a pound. So my personal history was seeing white people eating better than my family was, and they paid with food stamps.

It's definitely true that there are plenty of people using food stamps who are not making the best choices with their money/benefit dollars. Similarly, there are plenty of people who do not get food stamps who also make poor choices on how to use their limited resources. That said, you don't know that these people were actually eating better than your family. The monthly benefit is small (averages ~$127/person/month) meaning that if you spend it on candy and steak, while spending your cash on cigarettes and alcohol, you are probably going hungry or eating far worse at other times.


I know this now. I was an 18 yr old kid and didn't understand. I said in the other tread there are a lot of people out there who will judge others when the see this, as I did then, without trying to understand what could have caused people to need assistance, and think it is unfair that they are working hard and barely making ends meet, and the people they see as lazy are eating steak "on their tax dollar."

I didn't like knowing there were people like my sister who squandered their opportunities by choosing drugs and welfare to take care of them, when if they had made better choices and worked hard, they could have been successful. But then again, I am not her, I did not have the same life experiences as she did, so I can't and shouldn't judge her. Easier said than done - we all like to judge others.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 26 16, 3:36 pm 
Offline
The Last Word

Joined: June 21 06, 8:45 am
Posts: 19717
themiddle54 wrote:
Tim wrote:
I don't consider myself naive, but I have to admit, I had never thought "poor people are lazy" was any type of dog whistle.


You should read up on the Southern Strategy. There's a wiki page on it that I posted in the last page. There are several books on it. It's included in most PolySci 101 textbooks these days. Lee Atwater, a strategist and later head of the GOP, even discussed how "you can't say (n-word) anymore" and so the language became coded to appeal to racists and get their vote.

That's part of the challenge in these discussions. Being unaware that things have loaded/coded meanings, and being called out for saying those things, is not cause for consternation on the part of the person who's unaware of the history or implications of their words. It's a learning opportunity, and a chance to change. That's another thing that's funny about these discussions, is that there are these pleas that we'll never have any progress or any growth but some of the comments that are most in need of retirement are defended with a shrug and a "I didn't know that was offensive."

Edit: Schlich, thanks, you beat me to it.



I think it's presumptuous to think that wart needs to change. If he sees someone who is lazy, he should have every right to say so without being assumed a racist.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 26 16, 3:44 pm 
Offline
Perennial All-Star
User avatar

Joined: August 24 10, 2:49 pm
Posts: 4524
Socnorb11 wrote:
I think it's presumptuous to think that wart needs to change.


I think it's presumptuous to quote me and say I'm directing a comment at wart when I don't use his name and am replying to a comment made by a non-wart poster.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 26 16, 4:08 pm 
Offline
The Last Word

Joined: June 21 06, 8:45 am
Posts: 19717
themiddle54 wrote:
Socnorb11 wrote:
I think it's presumptuous to think that wart needs to change.


I think it's presumptuous to quote me and say I'm directing a comment at wart when I don't use his name and am replying to a comment made by a non-wart poster.



Sorry, I thought Wart posted that. I'll change my statement to "Tim", but the same premise.

Edit: Yeah, I was confused here. Tim's statement doesn't say what I thought it said. My bad.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 26 16, 4:12 pm 
Offline
just can't quit you.
User avatar

Joined: April 18 06, 4:33 pm
Posts: 24841
Location: Lost
Socnorb11 wrote:
themiddle54 wrote:
Socnorb11 wrote:
I think it's presumptuous to think that wart needs to change.


I think it's presumptuous to quote me and say I'm directing a comment at wart when I don't use his name and am replying to a comment made by a non-wart poster.



Sorry, I thought Wart posted that. I'll change my statement to "Tim", but the same premise.

Edit: Yeah, I was confused here. Tim's statement doesn't say what I thought it said. My bad.


I need to change. We all could use a little change...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 26 16, 4:18 pm 
Offline
Consider him admonished
User avatar

Joined: March 25 15, 9:59 am
Posts: 8268
Location: Charleston, SC via Arkansas
wart57 wrote:
Socnorb11 wrote:
themiddle54 wrote:
Socnorb11 wrote:
I think it's presumptuous to think that wart needs to change.


I think it's presumptuous to quote me and say I'm directing a comment at wart when I don't use his name and am replying to a comment made by a non-wart poster.



Sorry, I thought Wart posted that. I'll change my statement to "Tim", but the same premise.

Edit: Yeah, I was confused here. Tim's statement doesn't say what I thought it said. My bad.


I need to change. We all could use a little change...

Hey now. I voted for Hope and Change in 2008.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: September 27 16, 6:38 am 
Offline
a bad penny always turns up
User avatar

Joined: April 17 06, 12:27 pm
Posts: 23439
Location: Hanging out with my redneck, white socks and Blue Ribbon beer.
This whole experience has left me more bitter, more jaded.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: October 5 16, 2:03 pm 
Offline
Hall Of Famer
User avatar

Joined: July 7 06, 11:08 pm
Posts: 13026
Leroy wrote:
This whole experience has left me more bitter, more jaded.


And it shouldn't have. This shooting and protest shows, further, that we need to wait on facts. But we don't like to do that in America. I know you're talking about what happened in the thread, but so much of that was led from the initial reaction to the shooting and subsequent riot.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 230 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 19, 20, 21, 22, 23

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group