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PostPosted: February 16 17, 2:02 pm 
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vinsanity wrote:
Tim wrote:
vinsanity wrote:
I can't say I'd oppose mandatory vaccinations but I haven't heard that recommended, either. I do think it's perfectly reasonable for the government to require vaccinations to attend public schools, use licensed child care facilities and, hell, maybe to use government health care benefits.

Interesting thought. What would your argument be?

Your right to not vaccinate ends where it affects others; kids who don't get vaccinated are more likely to be sick; why should I pay for your choice? The "hell" was supposed to kind of transition that in to more philosophical/exaggerated statement but I was thinking more about things like taxes on alcohol and tobacco or even the soda taxes in NYC that people get upset about. I guess we could just tax organic food more and you'd get a large swath of the anti-vaxx crowd but taking something away would be easier.

There's enough nuance to that kind of policy that doctors and lawyers could try to spend a year crafting how to work it appropriately and fail. Is it only medicare/medicaid dependents? How do you handle pre-vaccination aged children? Do you limit it to treatment of measles and mumps of un-vaccinated children? Is it a requirement to add the dependent to your government employee insurance only? Do you simply raise the premiums on employees who do not vaccinate?

My defense of any such policy would be pretty light hearted in the face of moderately reasoned rebuttal. I believe there are numerous cases of prosecution in the case of children being endangered because of religious or personal beliefs. I'd say choosing to not vaccinate for reasons AD listed are worse and I'd rather encourage a good behavior (vaccinations) than punish a bad one (not vaccinating).

It wasn't too much of stretch to see where I was going when I asked the question. I guess I don't have too much sympathy for people that choose to smoke and get COPD. I sure don't like my tax dollars paying for their health care for a decision they made. In maybe the most unlibertarian thing I can say, I got no problem with taxing tobacco out the wazoo because of our current health care system. Even more so if/when we become single payer.


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PostPosted: February 16 17, 3:11 pm 
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Holy [expletive] is there ever a boatload of information available online.

I was just going to do a cursory search as to what anti-vaxxers hang their hat on...and holy [expletive].

not holy hit. holy uck.

I'm undoubtedly dumber, or maybe smarter, having spent a lunch break going over all this.

The gist of it is:
Andrew Wakefield's study that found a link b/w mmr and autism was actually a study I think b/w gastrointestinal abnormalities and autism (supported by colleagues I think) and only mentioned mmr as a cause bc of parents bringing it up (and later revealed for financial interests of the parents) but the data still shows GI abnormalities and autism being related. Or something.

Then, there's the CDC senior researcher (thompson I think) that testified in front of congress that there were improprieties in the CDC studies to hide (or something) that mercury or thimiserol causes neurologic defects, language pattern issues, tics, tourettes, etc.

here's something spoilered for length.
Spoiler: show
1. CDC scientists colluded to cover up a relationship between the timing of the MMR vaccine and autism in African Americans that was first discovered in November of 2001. Rather than reporting the results to the public, all data regarding this relationship were destroyed at a secret meeting held some time in August/September of 2002. This fact has been affirmed via an affidavit given by Dr. Thompson to Rep. Bill Posey in September, 2014.
2. Dr. Thompson attempted to warn the CDC Director at the time, Dr. Julie Gerberding, regarding this relationship, prior to the February 2004 Institute of Medicine meeting on vaccines and autism. Rather than allowing Dr. Thompson to present the information at this meeting, Dr. Gerberding replaced him as a speaker with Dr. Frank Destefano, current director of the CDC’s Immunization Safety Office, where he presented fraudulent results regarding the MMR vaccine and autism. Dr. Thompson was put on administrative leave and was threatened that he would be fired due to “insubordination.”
3. When Dr. Thompson attempted to leave the CDC later that same year, he was given a $24,000 retention bonus. Dr. Thompson’s impression of the timing of this bonus, in light of disciplinary actions taken against him earlier that year, is that CDC officials were “buying his silence” through controlling his actions as a CDC employee.
4. Dr. Thompson has published two papers linking thimerosal exposure in infant vaccines to tics in boys (Thompson et al. 2007 and Barile et al. 2012). CDC fraudulently maintains on their website that “There is no evidence of harm caused by the low doses of thimerosal in vaccines, except for minor reactions like redness and swelling at the injection site.” (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal/). The tic result was also affirmed in the earlier CDC publication by Verstraeten et al. (2003) and the Andrews et al. (2004) publication.
5. CDC pressured Dr. Thompson to downplay the tic result of his analysis in his 2007 paper. He was instructed to deemphasize the tic result by the CDC’s Chief Science Officer, Dr. Tanja Popovic, by emphasizing that the “major finding of the study” was “there is NO associations (sic) of thimerosal exposure with the great majority of the outcomes.” Dr. Popovic also instructed Dr. Thompson to interpret any negative outcomes as “chance findings.”
6. CDC also pressured Dr. Thompson to withhold publication of his 2012 paper which reported a relationship between thimerosal and tics. Dr. Ed Travathan, head of the CDC’s National Center for Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities, stated in an April 27, 2009 memo to him that the analysis was sound except for the tic results and that they should be omitted from the publication. Since the tic result was the only result that had a consistent negative relationship with thimerosal exposure, it seemed that Dr. Thompson’s superiors were specifically concerned that thimerosal’s safety and use not be questioned. As an epidemiologist, Dr. Thompson was justifiably concerned and critical of the CDC’s action to approve the paper for publication only after the CDC took the extraordinary step of adding an expert in tics to water down the paper to state, “This finding should be interpreted with caution due to limitations in the measurement of tics and the limited biological plausibility regarding a causal relationship.”

https://www.focusforhealth.org/dr-brian ... -thompson/

And, lastly there's the whole vaxxed movie thing.

Holy [expletive] you could spend an entire month ciphering through this stuff.

I didn't even have a chance to get into the CDC actual studies.

Anecdotally, I will say that our son has a tic (sniffing) and my wife informally diagnosed it a few months ago. I never thought about it but now I start to wonder. Like I said, now i'm dumber or know more. One of the two.


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PostPosted: February 16 17, 3:18 pm 
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has a link from 538 to share
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The mercury and thimiserol stuff has been debunked. I suggest watching the frontline video I posted earlier.


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PostPosted: February 16 17, 3:19 pm 
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http://howdovaccinescauseautism.com


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PostPosted: February 16 17, 3:20 pm 
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Michael wrote:
The mercury and thimiserol stuff has been debunked. I suggest watching the frontline video I posted earlier.

I did. It's been debunked but this guy is still out there claiming the debunking is bunked.


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PostPosted: February 16 17, 3:21 pm 
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Tim wrote:
http://howdovaccinescauseautism.com

haha.


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PostPosted: February 16 17, 3:25 pm 
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AWvsCBsteeeerike3 wrote:
Michael wrote:
The mercury and thimiserol stuff has been debunked. I suggest watching the frontline video I posted earlier.

I did. It's been debunked but this guy is still out there claiming the debunking is bunked.


Yeah, he's wrong. I may have misunderstood your post.


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PostPosted: February 16 17, 3:29 pm 
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Michael wrote:
AWvsCBsteeeerike3 wrote:
Michael wrote:
The mercury and thimiserol stuff has been debunked. I suggest watching the frontline video I posted earlier.

I did. It's been debunked but this guy is still out there claiming the debunking is bunked.


Yeah, he's wrong. I may have misunderstood your post.

I'm not saying he's right. just saying he's still out there.


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PostPosted: February 16 17, 4:24 pm 
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AWvsCBsteeeerike3 wrote:
Then, there's the CDC senior researcher (thompson I think) that testified in front of congress that there were improprieties in the CDC studies to hide (or something) that mercury or thimiserol causes neurologic defects, language pattern issues, tics, tourettes, etc.

On that study:

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal/environmental-exposures.html

Spoiler: show
A total of 378 statistical tests were conducted. Each child was tested on 42 neuropsychological outcomes, 3 exposure periods and the full model plus gender specific analyses. Among the 42 outcomes measured, the study found that the majority of the outcomes had NO association with thimerosal exposure and most associations would be what is expected by chance alone.

Only a few statistically significant associations or consistent patterns between exposure to thimerosal and neuropsychological functioning were found.

-Among males, increased prenatal exposure was associated with significantly better performance in visual spatial ability (Stanford Binet Copying test), and poorer performance with attention and executive functioning (WISC III Digit Span Backward Recall test). There were no significant associations for females.
-Increased exposure from birth to 7 months of age was associated with significantly better performance among males on achievement (WJ-III: Letter-Word Identification test) and among females on fine motor coordination (Grooved Peg Board Non-Dominant Hand test) and attention and executive functioning (WISC III Digit Span Backward Recall test). Among males, higher exposure was associated with poorer performance with attention and executive functioning (Brief Parent Rating of Behavioral Regulation test), and a higher likelihood of motor and phonic tics reported by the child assessor were observed.
-Among males, higher exposures during the first 28 days of life had beneficial associations with improved performance on five motor coordination (Finger-Tapping-Dominant-Hand and the Finger-Tapping-Non-Dominant-Hand tests) and general intellectual functioning (WASI Performance IQ test). Among females, higher exposure was associated with poorer scores on one test of verbal intellectual functioning (WASI Verbal IQ) and a lower likelihood of motor tics reported by parents were observed.

The weight of the evidence in this study does not support a causal association between early mercury exposure from thimerosal-containing vaccines and/or immunoglobulins and neuropsychological functioning at ages 7 to 10 years.


Is anybody commenting on why it's important to give their kids thimerosal vaccines because it improves boys' visual spatial abilities and girls' fine motor coordination?

Googling vaccine risks is depressing as hell. Worried parents will get an absolute flood of fake news, to use the modern parlance.


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PostPosted: February 18 17, 8:01 am 
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Tim wrote:
vinsanity wrote:
Tim wrote:
vinsanity wrote:
I can't say I'd oppose mandatory vaccinations but I haven't heard that recommended, either. I do think it's perfectly reasonable for the government to require vaccinations to attend public schools, use licensed child care facilities and, hell, maybe to use government health care benefits.

Interesting thought. What would your argument be?

Your right to not vaccinate ends where it affects others; kids who don't get vaccinated are more likely to be sick; why should I pay for your choice? The "hell" was supposed to kind of transition that in to more philosophical/exaggerated statement but I was thinking more about things like taxes on alcohol and tobacco or even the soda taxes in NYC that people get upset about. I guess we could just tax organic food more and you'd get a large swath of the anti-vaxx crowd but taking something away would be easier.

There's enough nuance to that kind of policy that doctors and lawyers could try to spend a year crafting how to work it appropriately and fail. Is it only medicare/medicaid dependents? How do you handle pre-vaccination aged children? Do you limit it to treatment of measles and mumps of un-vaccinated children? Is it a requirement to add the dependent to your government employee insurance only? Do you simply raise the premiums on employees who do not vaccinate?

My defense of any such policy would be pretty light hearted in the face of moderately reasoned rebuttal. I believe there are numerous cases of prosecution in the case of children being endangered because of religious or personal beliefs. I'd say choosing to not vaccinate for reasons AD listed are worse and I'd rather encourage a good behavior (vaccinations) than punish a bad one (not vaccinating).

It wasn't too much of stretch to see where I was going when I asked the question. I guess I don't have too much sympathy for people that choose to smoke and get COPD. I sure don't like my tax dollars paying for their health care for a decision they made. In maybe the most unlibertarian thing I can say, I got no problem with taxing tobacco out the wazoo because of our current health care system. Even more so if/when we become single payer.

That's one of the reasons there's a tax on tobacco (certainly in other parts of the world that have publicly funded healthcare, I'd imagine). Those systems work because they do stuff like force people to wear seatbelts and not text-and-drive - cuts down on accidents and minimises the impact when they do happen, thus decreasing the cost of looking after them - or taxing the thing seen as unhealthy. Or so the theory goes.

The whole anti-vaxx thing (which is being championed again by Robert DeNiro, so my Facebook news feed tells me) is really weird to me. I remember the fuss at the time about Andrew Wakefield, and investigative magazine "Private Eye" got 100% behind him, which led to lots of their liberal readers treating the link as proven, even though they were forced to backtrack and apologise time and time again when people started really looking into it.


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