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PostPosted: February 22 17, 5:55 pm 
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Funny - yahoo just posted a story showing how Obama's and Trumps plans are similar, and how they are different.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/heres-difference-between-trumps-immigration-185818429.html


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PostPosted: February 22 17, 6:13 pm 
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wart57 wrote:
Funny - yahoo just posted a story showing how Obama's and Trumps plans are similar, and how they are different.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/heres-difference-between-trumps-immigration-185818429.html

Which states that Trump's plan is to triple the number of enforcement officers, emphasizes to them that all unauthorized immigrants (not just criminals) are subject to deportation, and empowers them with greater authority to bypass court proceedings.

Seems like a big change.


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PostPosted: February 22 17, 6:55 pm 
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just can't quit you.
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Arthur Dent wrote:
wart57 wrote:
Funny - yahoo just posted a story showing how Obama's and Trumps plans are similar, and how they are different.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/heres-difference-between-trumps-immigration-185818429.html

Which states that Trump's plan is to triple the number of enforcement officers, emphasizes to them that all unauthorized immigrants (not just criminals) are subject to deportation, and empowers them with greater authority to bypass court proceedings.

Seems like a big change.

Sure does.


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PostPosted: February 23 17, 11:20 am 
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wart57 wrote:
G. Keenan wrote:
wart57 wrote:
G. Keenan wrote:
wart57 wrote:
Freed Roger wrote:
wart57 wrote:
The Woman in the story above was guilty of illegally using someones identity.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/09/us/arizona-guadalupe-garcia-de-rayos-protests/

Quote:
Garcia de Rayos has two children who were born in Arizona.
She came illegally to the United States in the mid-1990s with her parents when she was 14. She was arrested in 2008 during a workplace raid and convicted one year later of felony criminal impersonation.
After her conviction she appealed a court order to voluntarily deport and lost. She became the subject of a removal order in 2013 and was placed court-ordered supervision, which required her to report on a provided schedule to an ICE office until her order of removal was "affected," or acted on.
What we know about this Arizona mother's deportation
What we know about this woman's deportation
US immigration officials acknowledged that she was compliant with her supervision order. She showed up for each of her seven immigration check-ins prior to Wednesday.
Officials said her case had followed the legal system process and it was time for her to go back to her home country.
"(Her) immigration case underwent review at multiple levels of the immigration court system, including the Board of Immigration Appeals, and the judges held she did not have a legal basis to remain in the US," ICE said in a statement.
Carlos Garcia, director of immigration rights group Puente Arizona, said "ICE had done what President Trump wanted -- which is deport and separate our families."


What was supposed to happen with her? Just leave her alone, even though there was an order of removal from 2013?

Yes.


Do the court systems and laws mean nothing in this country if you don't agree with them?


Well if you're Donald Trump, apparently yes (see his comments about the federal judiciary when they ruled against him).


To your point though, yes, the laws of this country should and do mean something even if you don't agree with them. But in the context of immigration enforcement this is a very simplistic and unrealistic way to look at this. Not deporting someone for committing document fraud does not mean that child rape is now legal.

There are an estimated 11 million people living here illegally. That is a lot of people. Regardless of how they got here, they are here now and their lives are deeply intertwined into the fabric of American society. They have jobs and families. Some family members are legal because they were either born here or obtained legal status. They have been living here for decades. Why should be be spending BILLIONS of dollars to find them and send them back to countries where they no longer have a home because they have made one here? Why should we be depriving US citizens of their own parents and siblings? Just because "the law needs to mean something?" Then change the law. Give those who are non-violent, contributing members of our communities a path to legalization. Like Obama did, continue to find and deport the dangerous illegals.

This is not what Trump is trying to do. What he is trying to do is drive a wedge into the fabric of our society to accelerate the divisions that make it easier for malevolent power hungry billionaires like him to plunder our country. He wants to make his constituents fear their neighbors, or the "other" living in far off urban areas as a tool to bamboozle them into supporting his billionaire agenda.


I don't doubt he has his own agenda, my question is, when Obama was doing the exact same thing, and from the sounds of this particular case - it had wound it's way through the system, and she was out of time. Had this happened under Obama, or even Clinton if she won, liberals would have not said a thing about it. But since it was under Trump - just another point against his racist agenda.


Wart, you are missing the point entirely. Truly, you are. For the record, "liberals" in the immigration reform world were very vocal about Obama's deportations for years. They called him the "Deporter in Chief."

You aren't addressing the real and specific differences between Obama's policies and Trump's at all. Saying that liberals are now criticizing Trump is not pertinent to what we have been talking about for the last three pages, nor is it an accurate description of the pushback against Trump's immigration plans.


What do Liberals really want as far as immigration? Personally, I would like to see immigration made easier and less expensive so we wouldn't have as many people coming here illegally. But, I am 100% for enforcing the laws we currently have. This may seem heartless, but if you commit a crime, there needs to be punishment. Entering the U.S. without permission is a crime. There needs to be some sort of punishment. I also believe for people who have been here a long time, and have been productive members of society, there needs to be a way they can gain legal status.
I hate the way Trump is going about everything. He loves looking like a bully and pushing people around, and it is making people a lot harder on him than if he would use a little decorum and diplomacy. But, he doesn't know the meaning of the word diplomacy.


Saying that coming here without permission is a crime and that a crime must have a punishment is just a slogan though. What does that really mean? What does that achieve? How would they be punished? Deportation? Pay a fine and get some kind of legal status? We hear this slogan repeated a lot but it doesn't help us get any closer to a solution. In real life different crimes have different kinds of punishments because they are considered less serious. Heck, if you commit white collar crime like defrauding investors, home owners, or student loan borrowers you don't get punished at all! Isn't that fun.

So how serious a crime to we consider entering the country illegally, or entering the country legally and then remaining illegally? I think most Americans think that it's wrong, but that whatever kind of punishment it deserves should not be that harsh when people are just trying to earn a living and raise a family.

Our government does not have unlimited resources to enforce all laws to their maximum legal penalty, so it has to prioritize its actions. Given the facts that illegal immigrants do not commit more crimes than citizens, and that they contribute more to our economy than they take out, what I would like to see is continued aggressive targeting and deportation of violent and serious criminals, both those who have committed serious crimes here and serious crimes in their home countries. If you have lived here for some amount of time (2 years, 5 years?) that Congress could agree on and have not committed any serious crimes we should offer them a path to citizenship. Maybe they have to pay a fine and pass a background check.

Meanwhile, continue to detain and expeditiously deport people who have illegally entered very recently, like Obama was doing. Treat Mexico as an ally and not an enemy so they will continue to detain a deport people transiting through Mexico trying to get to the US. Remember, most migrants coming the US overland these days are not Mexicans, they are from other countries and they pass through Mexico to get here. Without Mexico's cooperation more of them will get through.

Make it easier to emigrate here legally. We need growth in the working age population to sustain older generations drawing social security and medicare. Cut red tape for farmers and growers to hire temporary workers. Right now they have to jump through a lot of stupid hoops to prove that there are no US citizens willing to pick tomatoes before they can hire foreigners.

End the war on drugs. Phase it out. It's a waste of money, hasn't achieved anything, and directly creates the violent conditions that cause people throughout Latin America to flee their homes in the first place. Legalize drugs, put the cartels out of business, and put the savings and tax revenues towards drug treatment and community policing here at home.

Do not waste billions of dollars building a wall, building new detention centers, hiring 15,000 new ICE agents. Do not demonize immigrants in the media. Do not forget that this country has always relied on immigrants for its growth and vitality.


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PostPosted: February 23 17, 12:13 pm 
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Native Americans didn't build a wall to keep Europeans out and look what happened to them!!!


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PostPosted: February 23 17, 2:11 pm 
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just can't quit you.
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Joined: April 18 06, 4:33 pm
Posts: 24780
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G. Keenan wrote:
wart57 wrote:
G. Keenan wrote:
wart57 wrote:
G. Keenan wrote:
wart57 wrote:
Freed Roger wrote:
wart57 wrote:
The Woman in the story above was guilty of illegally using someones identity.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/09/us/arizona-guadalupe-garcia-de-rayos-protests/

Quote:
Garcia de Rayos has two children who were born in Arizona.
She came illegally to the United States in the mid-1990s with her parents when she was 14. She was arrested in 2008 during a workplace raid and convicted one year later of felony criminal impersonation.
After her conviction she appealed a court order to voluntarily deport and lost. She became the subject of a removal order in 2013 and was placed court-ordered supervision, which required her to report on a provided schedule to an ICE office until her order of removal was "affected," or acted on.
What we know about this Arizona mother's deportation
What we know about this woman's deportation
US immigration officials acknowledged that she was compliant with her supervision order. She showed up for each of her seven immigration check-ins prior to Wednesday.
Officials said her case had followed the legal system process and it was time for her to go back to her home country.
"(Her) immigration case underwent review at multiple levels of the immigration court system, including the Board of Immigration Appeals, and the judges held she did not have a legal basis to remain in the US," ICE said in a statement.
Carlos Garcia, director of immigration rights group Puente Arizona, said "ICE had done what President Trump wanted -- which is deport and separate our families."


What was supposed to happen with her? Just leave her alone, even though there was an order of removal from 2013?

Yes.


Do the court systems and laws mean nothing in this country if you don't agree with them?


Well if you're Donald Trump, apparently yes (see his comments about the federal judiciary when they ruled against him).


To your point though, yes, the laws of this country should and do mean something even if you don't agree with them. But in the context of immigration enforcement this is a very simplistic and unrealistic way to look at this. Not deporting someone for committing document fraud does not mean that child rape is now legal.

There are an estimated 11 million people living here illegally. That is a lot of people. Regardless of how they got here, they are here now and their lives are deeply intertwined into the fabric of American society. They have jobs and families. Some family members are legal because they were either born here or obtained legal status. They have been living here for decades. Why should be be spending BILLIONS of dollars to find them and send them back to countries where they no longer have a home because they have made one here? Why should we be depriving US citizens of their own parents and siblings? Just because "the law needs to mean something?" Then change the law. Give those who are non-violent, contributing members of our communities a path to legalization. Like Obama did, continue to find and deport the dangerous illegals.

This is not what Trump is trying to do. What he is trying to do is drive a wedge into the fabric of our society to accelerate the divisions that make it easier for malevolent power hungry billionaires like him to plunder our country. He wants to make his constituents fear their neighbors, or the "other" living in far off urban areas as a tool to bamboozle them into supporting his billionaire agenda.


I don't doubt he has his own agenda, my question is, when Obama was doing the exact same thing, and from the sounds of this particular case - it had wound it's way through the system, and she was out of time. Had this happened under Obama, or even Clinton if she won, liberals would have not said a thing about it. But since it was under Trump - just another point against his racist agenda.


Wart, you are missing the point entirely. Truly, you are. For the record, "liberals" in the immigration reform world were very vocal about Obama's deportations for years. They called him the "Deporter in Chief."

You aren't addressing the real and specific differences between Obama's policies and Trump's at all. Saying that liberals are now criticizing Trump is not pertinent to what we have been talking about for the last three pages, nor is it an accurate description of the pushback against Trump's immigration plans.


What do Liberals really want as far as immigration? Personally, I would like to see immigration made easier and less expensive so we wouldn't have as many people coming here illegally. But, I am 100% for enforcing the laws we currently have. This may seem heartless, but if you commit a crime, there needs to be punishment. Entering the U.S. without permission is a crime. There needs to be some sort of punishment. I also believe for people who have been here a long time, and have been productive members of society, there needs to be a way they can gain legal status.
I hate the way Trump is going about everything. He loves looking like a bully and pushing people around, and it is making people a lot harder on him than if he would use a little decorum and diplomacy. But, he doesn't know the meaning of the word diplomacy.


Saying that coming here without permission is a crime and that a crime must have a punishment is just a slogan though. What does that really mean? What does that achieve? How would they be punished? Deportation? Pay a fine and get some kind of legal status? We hear this slogan repeated a lot but it doesn't help us get any closer to a solution. In real life different crimes have different kinds of punishments because they are considered less serious. Heck, if you commit white collar crime like defrauding investors, home owners, or student loan borrowers you don't get punished at all! Isn't that fun.

So how serious a crime to we consider entering the country illegally, or entering the country legally and then remaining illegally? I think most Americans think that it's wrong, but that whatever kind of punishment it deserves should not be that harsh when people are just trying to earn a living and raise a family.

Our government does not have unlimited resources to enforce all laws to their maximum legal penalty, so it has to prioritize its actions. Given the facts that illegal immigrants do not commit more crimes than citizens, and that they contribute more to our economy than they take out, what I would like to see is continued aggressive targeting and deportation of violent and serious criminals, both those who have committed serious crimes here and serious crimes in their home countries. If you have lived here for some amount of time (2 years, 5 years?) that Congress could agree on and have not committed any serious crimes we should offer them a path to citizenship. Maybe they have to pay a fine and pass a background check.

Meanwhile, continue to detain and expeditiously deport people who have illegally entered very recently, like Obama was doing. Treat Mexico as an ally and not an enemy so they will continue to detain a deport people transiting through Mexico trying to get to the US. Remember, most migrants coming the US overland these days are not Mexicans, they are from other countries and they pass through Mexico to get here. Without Mexico's cooperation more of them will get through.

Make it easier to emigrate here legally. We need growth in the working age population to sustain older generations drawing social security and medicare. Cut red tape for farmers and growers to hire temporary workers. Right now they have to jump through a lot of stupid hoops to prove that there are no US citizens willing to pick tomatoes before they can hire foreigners.

End the war on drugs. Phase it out. It's a waste of money, hasn't achieved anything, and directly creates the violent conditions that cause people throughout Latin America to flee their homes in the first place. Legalize drugs, put the cartels out of business, and put the savings and tax revenues towards drug treatment and community policing here at home.

Do not waste billions of dollars building a wall, building new detention centers, hiring 15,000 new ICE agents. Do not demonize immigrants in the media. Do not forget that this country has always relied on immigrants for its growth and vitality.


I can get behind everything you said.


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PostPosted: February 28 17, 4:09 pm 
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Trump's inviting family members of some people killed by illegal immigrants to his fascist gathering.

What's next - family members of someone killed by Muslim, or a Jew, or a transgender person, or a democrat, or a black person.

He's dehumanizing people.
This is the country we live in. This is the guy GOP refuses to impeach.


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PostPosted: February 28 17, 4:19 pm 
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Freed Roger wrote:
Trump's inviting family members of some people killed by illegal immigrants.

What's next - family members of someone killed by Muslim, or a Jew, or a democrat.

This is the country we live in. This is the guy GOP refuse to impeach.


Make no mistake, Trump is a racist determined to use racism as a tool to keep his core constituency riled up. Illegal immigrants come from all parts of the world, but we all know who Trump has made the face of illegal immigration since day 1 -- Hispanics. I'll bet you 100 GRB Dollars every one of the people he invites will claim to have been victimized by a Hispanic person.

Will ICE be going after the estimated 50,000 Irish living illegally in the Boston area? Will we see raids at Patty Malone's Irish Pub? Of course not.

It's getting ugly out there. The other day my father-in-law, who is Mexican, a US citizen, and has lived here since the 1970's got yelled at in traffic and told to "go back to his country." Is there anything worse than a dumb ass uneducated white person? I mean, there isn't. They have that special combination of ignorance and self-entitlement that makes them that extra level of obnoxious.


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PostPosted: February 28 17, 4:29 pm 
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Freed Roger wrote:
Trump's inviting family members of some people killed by illegal immigrants to his fascist gathering.

What's next - family members of someone killed by Muslim, or a Jew, or a transgender person, or a democrat, or a black person.

He's dehumanizing people.
This is the country we live in. This is the guy GOP refuses to impeach.


Are we pretending the GOP doesn't want this? The GOP and their racists voters have wanted this for a long time, they just now have Trump to put it on. To think the right in this country is your friend is a big mistake. They wish you harm if you are different then them. They are not good guys with different ideas how to run America. They are terrible people.


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PostPosted: February 28 17, 4:34 pm 
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so, i don't feel like researching, but how do you deport a person to, say mexico?

load them up in a car, dive across the border, open the passenger side door and kick them out/drive back to US?

i mean the county you're deporting them to, has to accept them somehow i would think, yes?


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