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PostPosted: June 12 18, 2:16 pm 
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Vox: Conservatives hated it when Obama said he’d meet with North Korea.

I'm not sure why Obama couldn't get a meeting with N Korea dictator cuckoo-bird. While Trump could. I suspect Kim Jong Un - a fan of Dennis Rodman and known to have various odd western pop culture fetishes - found Trump relatable. Obama aimed for meeting with no preconditions. One would assume that the horrific human rights situation in NK would come up, something cuckoo-bird wouldn't have.

Obama did make progress with Iran, and clearly with Cuba. Only Trump has undone that at least in part, because authoritarians acting upon whims is the way it goes.


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PostPosted: June 12 18, 2:23 pm 
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Freed Roger wrote:
Vox: Conservatives hated it when Obama said he’d meet with North Korea.

I'm not sure why Obama couldn't get a meeting with N Korea dictator cuckoo-bird. While Trump could. I suspect Kim Jong Un - a fan of Dennis Rodman and known to have various odd western pop culture fetishes - found Trump relatable. Obama aimed for meeting with no preconditions. One would assume that the horrific human rights situation in NK would come up, something cuckoo-bird wouldn't have.

Obama did make progress with Iran, and clearly with Cuba. Only Trump has undone that at least in part, because authoritarians acting upon whims is the way it goes.



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PostPosted: June 12 18, 2:31 pm 
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Back when Trump and Kim Jong Un were comparing the size of their nuclear warheads, and each were threatening to use them - does anyone else recall how the human rights atrocities were suddenly getting a lot of attention in the conservative and Christian right media?*

Now it is silence on the matter.

*or maybe it was russian bots promoting these stories that were getting passed around by people that follow Fox News etal.


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PostPosted: June 12 18, 2:40 pm 
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pioneer98 wrote:

stuff like this was everywhere. Is Kim Jong Un not evil anymore? is he emptying the slave camps?


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PostPosted: June 12 18, 2:41 pm 
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He agreed to de-nuclearize. What more do you want??

Oh wait..... he agreed to do that 25 years ago. Never mind.


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PostPosted: June 12 18, 2:54 pm 
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I think pointing out the hypocrisy and biases of politicians and their advocates isn’t productive. Both sides suffer from confirmation bias. People would rather retweet “Trump criticizes Trump” tweets than do anything that moves the needle. Or perhaps that’s catharsis. Either way, catharsis isn’t enough.

Without getting into their motives - racism, fear, economic anxiety, any other anecdotal thing people cite after reading Hillbilly Elegy and Dreamland - the right is winning. One gets the impression that Young Democrats see 30k retweets and feel satisfied on a matter.


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PostPosted: June 12 18, 2:57 pm 
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MAGA wrote:
I think pointing out the hypocrisy and biases of politicians and their advocates isn’t productive. Both sides suffer from confirmation bias. People would rather retweet “Trump criticizes Trump” tweets than do anything that moves the needle. Or perhaps that’s catharsis. Either way, catharsis isn’t enough.

Without getting into their motives - racism, fear, economic anxiety, any other anecdotal thing people cite after reading Hillbilly Elegy and Dreamland - the right is winning. One gets the impression that Young Democrats see 30k retweets and feel satisfied on a matter.

Winning in Alabam senate race? Winning congress special elections in red districts?

You point out a historic problem. There are signs these problems are being fixed. They better be. We'll see.


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PostPosted: June 12 18, 3:04 pm 
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My understanding is NK has wanted a meeting like this for years. I'm guessing Obama's advisers cautioned against it and he listened. Not to mention every conservative out there was aghast at the idea of even talking about talking. Trump supposedly jumped at it without consulting anyone.

I'd say Obama should have ignored all that and done it anyway. Like I said above, I don't care for the idea that just appearing with Kim gives him legitimacy. Which is why it's good we dealt with Iran. The point there was to stop them from developing nukes, not to say they were good guys.

There could also have been legitimate reasons Obama didn't want to meet. Maybe Kim wanted stuff like Trump was giving him - profuse flattery, their flags arranged together on stage, the photo op. And maybe Obama knew they'd only get what Trump got out of this meeting, which is a promise to talk and not much else. Who knows?

It could be that through his naivete, Trump does a good thing here. If so, I'll be thankful and wonder we had to back out of the Iran deal.


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PostPosted: June 12 18, 3:16 pm 
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ghostrunner wrote:
I'd say Obama should have ignored all that and done it anyway. Like I said above, I don't care for the idea that just appearing with Kim gives him legitimacy. Which is why it's good we dealt with Iran. The point there was to stop them from developing nukes, not to say they were good guys.

I'm not against these meetings and I'm not sure there's an ideal path to be found here, but I don't think legitimacy is the issue here. As we negotiate nuclear deescalation treaties with countries like North Korea and Iran our treatment of the two regimes sends a very clear message. If you have a nuke, we won't invade you like we invaded Iraq. If you don't have one, that's always an option. Kim proved that successfully developing a nuclear bomb is the only way to guarantee your life and rule continues. Not a great message for all the despots of the world to see played out in such a public fashion.


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PostPosted: June 12 18, 3:26 pm 
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thrill wrote:
ghostrunner wrote:
I'd say Obama should have ignored all that and done it anyway. Like I said above, I don't care for the idea that just appearing with Kim gives him legitimacy. Which is why it's good we dealt with Iran. The point there was to stop them from developing nukes, not to say they were good guys.

I'm not against these meetings and I'm not sure there's an ideal path to be found here, but I don't think legitimacy is the issue here. As we negotiate nuclear deescalation treaties with countries like North Korea and Iran our treatment of the two regimes sends a very clear message. If you have a nuke, we won't invade you like we invaded Iraq. If you don't have one, that's always an option. Kim proved that successfully developing a nuclear bomb is the only way to guarantee your life and rule continues. Not a great message for all the despots of the world to see played out in such a public fashion.


I'm just saying that may be why Obama didn't meet with him. You can see that in the conservative reactions, and that seems to be true in corners of the foreign policy world that are critical of Trump. I'm not saying Trump is doing this right, because going out of your way to say what a great person Kim is doesn't make sense either.


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