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PostPosted: July 8 19, 3:18 pm 
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Way to get white people woke:

Read Guy Debord and Karl Marx. See how racism is a tactic of capitalism and then it stems from there. There's tribalism aspects you can trace it back to but it's mostly taught. White babies/toddlers don't just hate the black babies for no reason.

Read this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Settlers-Mytholo ... B00N980EQK

Can't recommend it enough. One of the best reads about modern racism there is.


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PostPosted: July 8 19, 3:22 pm 
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pioneer98 wrote:
I'm reading The Man They Wanted Me To Be and it's extremely good. Here is a review of the book by Henry Rollins:

Men are expected to be ‘strong silent types’ — and it’s breaking them, says Henry Rollins

I'm a bit over halfway through. There's so much good stuff in the book I barely know where to begin. Early in the book he tries to make a case using history and statistics that toxic masculinity (especially the white kind) is what this country was founded on and it has been extremely slowly unwinding since then. He also argues that it will inevitably fail because it is unsustainable. He also has lots and lots of personal stories from growing up in a dirt poor broken household, and the parade of messed up dudes his mom tried to court as a husband and father figure to her kid. One thing he talked about that stuck with me is how our culture teaches men to try to fit themselves into 4 "approved" male archetypes - the jock, the hick, the prep, and the outlaw. He argues that a 5th culturally approved archetype was recently added - the internet troll. When I read that section, I think there is likely even a 6th one now - the tech bro or tech entrepreneur or whatever you want to call it. Anyway, men pretending to be one of these archetypes is extremely damaging to others, but also to themselves. How do we teach people this is so harmful and unnecessary?


We should probably have a whole new thread for this topic. Or do we already?

Most (literally, most) of the problems in this world are caused by men and their (our) fragile psyches.


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PostPosted: July 8 19, 3:28 pm 
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Testosterone is a helluva drug.


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PostPosted: July 8 19, 3:44 pm 
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G. Keenan wrote:
pioneer98 wrote:
I'm reading The Man They Wanted Me To Be and it's extremely good. Here is a review of the book by Henry Rollins:

Men are expected to be ‘strong silent types’ — and it’s breaking them, says Henry Rollins

I'm a bit over halfway through. There's so much good stuff in the book I barely know where to begin. Early in the book he tries to make a case using history and statistics that toxic masculinity (especially the white kind) is what this country was founded on and it has been extremely slowly unwinding since then. He also argues that it will inevitably fail because it is unsustainable. He also has lots and lots of personal stories from growing up in a dirt poor broken household, and the parade of messed up dudes his mom tried to court as a husband and father figure to her kid. One thing he talked about that stuck with me is how our culture teaches men to try to fit themselves into 4 "approved" male archetypes - the jock, the hick, the prep, and the outlaw. He argues that a 5th culturally approved archetype was recently added - the internet troll. When I read that section, I think there is likely even a 6th one now - the tech bro or tech entrepreneur or whatever you want to call it. Anyway, men pretending to be one of these archetypes is extremely damaging to others, but also to themselves. How do we teach people this is so harmful and unnecessary?


We should probably have a whole new thread for this topic. Or do we already?

Most (literally, most) of the problems in this world are caused by men and their (our) fragile psyches.

Which is also a symptom of capitalism and the passed down classical conditioning rather than some inherent thing in men.

Power and greed is the root of that psyche. Entitlement, etc.

Not that I disagree with Mr. Rollins' and the Sexton book and their compartmentalizing of these things. They should be discussed and handled for sure.


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PostPosted: July 8 19, 3:49 pm 
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thrill wrote:
Testosterone is a helluva drug.

Do men have more fragile psyches or just more power to multiply the impact of pathological behavior?

On the pro side of that, male pathology tends to go unexamined or be normalized, but I wouldn't put that down to biology per se.


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PostPosted: July 11 19, 10:03 am 
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Arthur Dent wrote:
thrill wrote:
Testosterone is a helluva drug.

Do men have more fragile psyches or just more power to multiply the impact of pathological behavior?

On the pro side of that, male pathology tends to go unexamined or be normalized, but I wouldn't put that down to biology per se.

I think it's mostly the unexamined/cultural norms of the traditional male gender role, but I do think there's a chemical component to how the unexamined pathology manifests itself in the physical sense.


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PostPosted: July 11 19, 10:25 am 
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Big Amoco Sign wrote:
Which is also a symptom of capitalism and the passed down classical conditioning rather than some inherent thing in men.


I don't think you can pin this on capitalism when so much toxic masculinity exists in Communist Russia, third-world African nations, Latin/South America, the Middle East and beyond.


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PostPosted: July 11 19, 10:44 am 
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33anda3rd wrote:
Big Amoco Sign wrote:
Which is also a symptom of capitalism and the passed down classical conditioning rather than some inherent thing in men.


I don't think you can pin this on capitalism when so much toxic masculinity exists in Communist Russia, third-world African nations, Latin/South America, the Middle East and beyond.

Russia isn't actually communist. Capitalism in disguise (there's still a ruling class).

In regards to your other countries, like I said, classically conditioned in humans from ancient Egyptian days and before. If you want to argue "inherent" then fine. But I pin a lot of that behavior on environmental factors, with some conditioning sprinkled in.


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PostPosted: July 11 19, 12:09 pm 
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Big Amoco Sign wrote:
33anda3rd wrote:
Big Amoco Sign wrote:
Which is also a symptom of capitalism and the passed down classical conditioning rather than some inherent thing in men.


I don't think you can pin this on capitalism when so much toxic masculinity exists in Communist Russia, third-world African nations, Latin/South America, the Middle East and beyond.

Russia isn't actually communist. Capitalism in disguise (there's still a ruling class).

In regards to your other countries, like I said, classically conditioned in humans from ancient Egyptian days and before. If you want to argue "inherent" then fine. But I pin a lot of that behavior on environmental factors, with some conditioning sprinkled in.


Capitalism encourages a particularly brutal and lonely version of masculinity, but the subjugation of women is not unique to capitalism or Christianity or the "West." Where it comes from, I don't know. Perhaps from the immoral brutality of nature from which our species emerged. There are many ways to achieve and maintain power depending on the system in question, but at its most elemental, power is the ability to dominate, control, and kill. What power does the Law have, ultimately, but the threat to take away your life and liberty? To the extent that any hierarchical society like ours and like all of the civilizations that have preceded us wields power over the individual, the Law, underpinned by the threat of sanctioned violence is the mechanism. To the best of my knowledge in every civilization the Earth has witnessed, the Law is administered by men. Why? Perhaps there is a biological component to male violence. We can observe it in the males of many other species of mammals and in our closest evolutionary cousins like chimpanzees -- who murder each other and wage war on other groups and demonstrate sexual violence. You don't see females in most animal species fighting each other for social dominance.

As an aside, perhaps the reason that a certain kind of man feels so threatened by homosexuality is that homosexual men, by nature and by temperament, have no interest in participating in and therefore perpetuating the system of male dominated social violence and as such are considered traitors to the group. Why else the pressure to conform to "traditional" masculinity? Shouldn't straight men be glad they have fewer other men to compete with for women? So why so threatened, unless it is the psychological threat posed by another version of masculinity gaining social capital.

Back on topic -- what white people fail to realize about themselves is that the privileged social status our ancestors created for themselves and their posterity was forged through incredible, centuries-long violence, degradation, and exploitation. White supremacy is the ideological DNA of the United States and pervades every single person's (not just white people) psychology and dictates our legal and economic systems. This monstrous ideology was the product of European colonialism and we are still living and grappling with its consequences. Violence and brutality will disfigure your soul. Rather than confront this and face it, most white people instead just look away, which is a psychological luxury that social power affords. Who will force white people to confront the past and its legacy? Other white people? It's just easier not to look under that rock. But as other voices and perspectives gain more cultural, economic, and political power they can shape the conversation and increasingly force white people to confront all this. For some whites this not acceptable and their reaction is to try to dominate and control the language, in order to maintain the illusion that their social privilege derives from their own inherent goodness and not from three centuries of American slavery and repression. How else can the simple phrase, "Black Lives Matter," feel like a threat or a challenge to your status? Why are athlete protests against police brutality so bothersome to you? Fox News and now Trump have made a good living at helping white people avoid looking in the mirror.


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PostPosted: July 11 19, 1:13 pm 
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G. Keenan wrote:
How else can the simple phrase, "Black Lives Matter," feel like a threat or a challenge to your status? Why are athlete protests against police brutality so bothersome to you? Fox News and now Trump have made a good living at helping white people avoid looking in the mirror.

Hard agree on your last point. White people are so fragile. Snowflakes, if you will...


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