GatewayRedbirds.com

A Message Board Dedicated to Discussing St. Louis Cardinals Baseball!
It is currently June 27 19, 4:02 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 817 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65 ... 82  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: January 3 19, 1:01 pm 
Offline
Hall Of Famer
User avatar

Joined: July 15 08, 8:24 pm
Posts: 19333
Location: Low A Minors
33anda3rd wrote:
pioneer98 wrote:
We haven't given these people many other ways to accumulate wealth than to mooch off their Boomer parents. Mooching/banking on inheritance might be extremely lame, but it is a rational response to the world we have created.


Wait....kids who have parents wealthy enough to leave them a sizable inheritance....don't have employment opportunities in America? Maybe I'm missing your meaning pioneer, but this does not compute. There was/is not a shortage of education and employment opportunities for white people born to upper-middle-class homes between 1950 and 1980 in America.



Gen X is roughly 1960 to 1980, give or take. I'm talking mostly about Millennials - people born in the 1980s. One couple I'm thinking of was born in the late 1970s.

I would not say the people I'm describing are "upper middle class". The people I'm talking about have parents born in the 1950s or 1960s and came from a lower middle class family (if not a straight up poor family). Most of these parents do not have a college degree, but they were able to get a good union job or own some property or whatever, and moved up the class ladder over time. Their Millennial kids may or may not have a college degree, and TONS of Millenials are struggling to find a good paying job, even ones more educated than the ones I'm describing.

One of the families I'm thinking of moved to a small town to be near the one's parents so it would be easier to mooch off them. They could have probably gotten a better paying job in a larger city, but that would have been more work. It's lazy, but it's not irrational. Work sucks! So it makes sense on some level. They are not teaching their own kids how to be self-sufficient, which is bad and could perpetuate this cycle of dependency on parents until the money is gone. So if things don't change, their kids/grandkids will probably be back to being lower middle class/poor.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: January 3 19, 1:11 pm 
Offline
Consider him admonished
User avatar

Joined: March 25 15, 9:59 am
Posts: 8134
Location: Charleston, SC via Arkansas
Right on. I guess I was trying to answer the question about people consumed with the world being a Christian just because they proclaim to be. Jesus didn’t think so, so I won’t consider them that way either. I’m no minister, but I proclaim to be a Christian and do my best to live by Jesus’s teachings. I think the greatest threat to Christianity isn’t a “war on Christmas” or whatever Foxnews says, but rather people proclaiming to be Christ followers doing nothing of the sort.

It is interesting to me that through the gospels it was the religious leaders that drew Jesus’s ire. Not the prostitues, drunkards or cheaters he interacted with, but those that claimed to be keepers of The Law. Our pastor is fond of saying “Our church should look less like a country club and more like a WalMart parking lot.” That’s a good mindset, but I’m not sure what we, as a church, are doing to minister to the needy.* The church we see on our news programs seem a lot less Christ like and more Pharisee like in my opinion. It hurts me. I both love and hate this thread. I love when Christians act like it, but I hate it when the most popular “Christians” (Osteen, Falwell) make headlines.

Sorry for the ramble. I’ve grown more and more in my faith and have felt the power of the Holy Spirit act in my own life. But when partisan bickering and win at all cost political agendas become more important than the gospel it discourages me.

*I should say I’m aware of the ministries in my local congregation to the needy, but in a larger “Evangelical” (hate that word) sense I don’t think the needy are a priority.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: January 3 19, 1:46 pm 
Offline
Replies Authoritatively
User avatar

Joined: April 7 13, 9:45 am
Posts: 6724
Location: Chicago, IL
pioneer98 wrote:
Gen X is roughly 1960 to 1980, give or take. I'm talking mostly about Millennials - people born in the 1980s. One couple I'm thinking of was born in the late 1970s.


My leech of a brother in law I was referring to upstream is like 66 years old now. He's got a failing business and a lousy marriage but he thinks he's wealthy and virtuous. He's not Gen X waiting to inherit Boomer money, he's a Boomer and he's waiting to inherit Brokaw's Greatest Generation Money. I kinda want my father in law to live til he's 110 just to screw the ol BIL over, because he's working until that ship comes in the [expletive] sap. Won't happen, since my FIL is 93 in March, pulls an oxygen machine around, and can't walk 50 feet without stopping to sit down.

I was born in 1973 and am squarely Gen X, moved to Chicago at 22 with a duffel bag and $162 to my name, spent my mid-20s to late-30s working 60-hour weeks, invested way more than I spent and was lucky to invest really well, lived way beneath my means until my late 30s, and my FIL could leave it all to charity and it wouldn't tangibly impact my life all that much. Might speed retirement by a year or two but I work now because I do work I like so who gives a crap anyway, I'm rich as [expletive] just from buying Apple stock for $2 in the early 00s. Now I get to use the restaurant experience I picked up to get paid going around writing menus for people, educating people on spirits, etc. It's not work. And a lot of Gen Xers are that way. I see a LOT of professional people eating lunch in Logan Square cafes at 1PM on a Wednesday, people of my generation who have been able to life kind of a Montessori adulthood where we figure out how to make a living on that thing we like rather than punching a clock and being miserable. So I don't think it's a Gen X thing, or that it's exclusively the provenance of Gen X and that Boomers and Milennials are exempt. I think the Boomers and the uneducated have this more than the X-ers, this religion of Virtue Through Wealth even when it's wealth they don't have.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: January 3 19, 1:49 pm 
Offline
Official GRB Sponsor of Larry Bigbie

Joined: April 17 06, 9:16 pm
Posts: 27068
Location: No. 16 on the Cards Top 15 Prospect List
33anda3rd wrote:
What % of Christian leadership--pastors, philosophers, authors--is represented by people like Bruggemann?

Why is that number not 100?

What do you see as being the roadblock that precludes that number from ever being 100?

What do you think it is about religion, human nature, or the interplay of religion and human nature that will prevent that roadblock from ever being fully lifted?


1. A very high percentage. He's extremely well respected across denominational lines. As are other scholars/theologicans in his class -- Neibuhr, Willimon, NT Wright, Eugene Peterson, maybe even Henri Nouwen (Catholic).

2-3. Easy answer is exposure in education. Brueggemann is a highly respected Old Testament scholar who has worked primarily with the prophets. So, unless that's an interest of yours for continued study as a pastor or leader or you are in seminary/recently graduated from seminary and his books were an assigned text, you might just not know about him. But, if you throw out individuals and look at mainstream, modern theological scholarship as a collective group, then you'll start hitting most Protestant pastors and leaders. If you just took that list of names above, I would say that 80-90% of Protestant pastors/leaders/writers have read one or more works from 2-3 of those authors, if they have some kind of formal pastoral/theological training, which is required in almost all denominations for ordination.

I guess what I'm getting at is that what Brueggemann is saying is not uncommon or unpopular at all with Christian pastors and leaders. What Falwell is saying IS VERY uncommon and unpopular with the same group of people. For every Falwell and Franklin Graham that get so much media attention, there are thousands upon thousands of pastors, leaders, writers, speakers, who vehemently and publicly (we do have a platform after all... literally) speak against that kind of blatant heresy.

4. You're not asking the right question here but that's ok. If I answered your question directly, it would have to be able practical steps to better train clergy -- which is something I am working on in my own region and with our denomination's seminary. That's not what you're getting at, though. The better question, and I think the heart of what you're asking, is why does the message of the clergy not trickle down well to the people in the pews, who will (for reasons that boggle my mind) ignore what their pastors/leaders/favorite writers/Bibles say and completely believe a talking head on Fox. We've talked about that a lot around here, and I think the answer lies somewhere in our own mental compartmentalization as well as social relationships.

I have a professor friend (who is actually my faculty adviser for my own doctoral research) who is working on the connection between neuroscience and the learning process, within a faith environment. Personally, I'm trying to learn how people learn as well as how people can unlearn something (like, say, 20 years of Christian Right being pounded into their heads) and re-learn something else (like what the Bible actually says about stuff). It's EXTREMELY complex. But, I think it's the heart of the issue.

The kinds of pastors who like Bruggemann and Willimon and whoever are struggling to break through the mental and socio-cultural walls created through decades of established behavior and thought patterns.

Easier is to simply educate those who don't have those established behaviors and thought patterns. Millennials -- who are socially-oriented and spiritually-motivated (even if they do not check traditional christian/evangelical/protestant/catholic boxes on their surveys) -- almost naturally get it right.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: January 3 19, 2:05 pm 
Offline
Replies Authoritatively
User avatar

Joined: April 7 13, 9:45 am
Posts: 6724
Location: Chicago, IL
Fat Strat wrote:
1. A very high percentage. He's extremely well respected across denominational lines. As are other scholars/theologicans in his class -- Neibuhr, Willimon, NT Wright, Eugene Peterson, maybe even Henri Nouwen (Catholic).


If it's very high and people like Bruggemann are anti-consumerism and anti-nationalism then...

1. Why doesn't the public at large relate religious leaders to those ideals?

2. Why don't I know who any of those people are but I know who Falwell and Osteen are? Media-blaming is not a fair response. People not into TV know who Oprah is. People not into postmodernist literary fiction have heard of Jonathan Franzen and David Foster Wallace. I'm not into the NFL at all and I know who Brady and Gronk are, I know who the RB who held out from the Steelers is. Why are they obscure if they're a high % but Falwell is a household name and is the minority?

I think your accounting is off. It can't be a high percentage. You can't have a Catholic church involved in decades of covering up sexual abuse in which priests preyed on young men, ruining their lives, and the church just shuffled them from location to location to keep them moving instead of casting them out and expect people to believe that the majority of them are actually good nice people. If the big majority were good, the church would have cleaned itself up without the intervention of journalists and law enforcement.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: January 3 19, 2:15 pm 
Offline
Official GRB Sponsor of Larry Bigbie

Joined: April 17 06, 9:16 pm
Posts: 27068
Location: No. 16 on the Cards Top 15 Prospect List
33anda3rd wrote:
I believe in the physical world I inhabit and I don't believe in heaven or in hell. I believe in being as good as I can in this world because I think the secret to life, the meaning of life, is the legacy or whatever that you leave behind whether it's kids, published works, small little steps in life that make things better on the micro/nano level in your community. I think that the physical world is all there is. This is my belief. I don't live that way and say that but secretly go pray at night to hedge my bets, I don't think that I should live two ways just in case I'm wrong about heaven. I'm consistent in what I say I believe and how I act.

Religious people--or people who claim to be Christian--who don't live religious/Christian lives are hypocrites, yes? They say they are Christian and don't practice Christianity, which was the point of the thread title when this convo got locked last time--"why are Christians not more Christ-like?"

Similar to the questions I asked above, what % of people who self-identify as Christian/Evanglical/Catholic do you think are living that hypocritical lifestyle? Does that number frighten you a little? Does it make your work seem hard? How does that change, short of the media--a bunch of people who are driven by facts that can be proven, followed up on, double checked, then published as facts--being friendlier to something that as only a belief system is antithetical to journalism?


I'll just hit on some of these. I really like the conversation, but it's time consuming and hard to keep up as the thread moves on, which pushes me to want to invest more time. So, sorry in advance for less than satisfying answers, but I'll give you some thoughts at least.

what % of people who self-identify as Christian/Evanglical/Catholic do you think are living that hypocritical lifestyle? Answer: All of them. The point of Christianity is not "you're a sinner, I'm a saint". It's "we all suck at this and we need a lot of help to get better." Grace -- undeserved favor -- through faith -- probably best considered here as hope and determination. It's not just believing really hard in some imaginary spaghetti monster. It's being convinced that there is a better way and taking mental and physical steps to enact it.

I'm consistent in what I say I believe and how I act. Response: No, you're not, at least not according to psychology/sociology. Not any more than your average Christian. I don't know you personally, so don't take that as a personal shot. We're just not consistent beings. By your own measures of goodness and significance -- which are pretty admirable, thumbs up! -- you fail most of the time. You can always do more good. You often make choices not to do good because you decide someone doesn't deserve it. You'll focus on legacy one moment then focus on self-satisfaction the next. You might feel like you're pretty consistent, but you change by mood, environment, and company and the values through which you judge yourself and your actions change with it. Moral relativism vs. absolute truth. A Christian's hypocrisy is easier to see because you can point to a written standard and see where they don't line up. It's much harder to recognize our own inconsistencies when we don't have an external source to judge ourselves against.

I think that the physical world is all there is. This is my belief. Response: No, you don't. You live in the dominant culture of this world, but I guarantee that you have some kind of imagined alternative reality that you are striving for and desiring to reach. A world where you are happy, content, significant, leaving a legacy -- whatever it is, fill in your own blanks. That world exists for you even though it is not real. You hope toward it and are determined to bring it to reality, but you don't always make the choices, decisions, or steps necessary to bring what you hope for into reality. And so, it remains an alternative and the dominant culture of the world has won again... for now. This is what Bruggemann is talking about. Except he's centering that ideal hope on God's Kingdom and you center in on your own kingdom.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: January 3 19, 2:28 pm 
Offline
Official GRB Sponsor of Larry Bigbie

Joined: April 17 06, 9:16 pm
Posts: 27068
Location: No. 16 on the Cards Top 15 Prospect List
33anda3rd wrote:
Fat Strat wrote:
1. A very high percentage. He's extremely well respected across denominational lines. As are other scholars/theologicans in his class -- Neibuhr, Willimon, NT Wright, Eugene Peterson, maybe even Henri Nouwen (Catholic).


If it's very high and people like Bruggemann are anti-consumerism and anti-nationalism then...

1. Why doesn't the public at large relate religious leaders to those ideals?

2. Why don't I know who any of those people are but I know who Falwell and Osteen are? Media-blaming is not a fair response. People not into TV know who Oprah is. People not into postmodernist literary fiction have heard of Jonathan Franzen and David Foster Wallace. I'm not into the NFL at all and I know who Brady and Gronk are, I know who the RB who held out from the Steelers is. Why are they obscure if they're a high % but Falwell is a household name and is the minority?

I think your accounting is off. It can't be a high percentage. You can't have a Catholic church involved in decades of covering up sexual abuse in which priests preyed on young men, ruining their lives, and the church just shuffled them from location to location to keep them moving instead of casting them out and expect people to believe that the majority of them are actually good nice people. If the big majority were good, the church would have cleaned itself up without the intervention of journalists and law enforcement.


1. Do you have evidence that they don't? Go around town asking people what they think about their pastor. Ask them how they felt about the guy who did their mother's funeral or the guy who performed the service at their daughter's wedding. Go to a ministerial alliance gathering and see what they do. How many pastors do you even know? And do you actually know them?

2. Have you made any attempt at all to know any of those people? If you only watch baseball, then it's your fault, not mine, that you don't know anything about golf. Or are golfers supposed to someone get their sport into the middle of baseball games? It's a big world out there. Eugene Peterson just passed away and it was HUGE news ... in lots of mainstream circles. Maybe Deadspin didn't carry it. Maybe SNL didn't do a skit about it. I post articles here all the time from guys like the ones I mentioned. Ed Stetzer is everywhere. Have you heard of him? So, if you don't know it, you're selectively listening. Listen better.


Last edited by Fat Strat on January 3 19, 2:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: January 3 19, 2:29 pm 
Offline
Seeking a Zubaz seamstress

Joined: September 4 07, 1:48 pm
Posts: 23753
Location: St. Louis
Tim wrote:
I think the greatest threat to Christianity isn’t a “war on Christmas” or whatever Foxnews says, but rather people proclaiming to be Christ followers doing nothing of the sort.
.

Agreed, and will also highlight that it, the Trump/GOP/$$$ alliance with proclaimed Christian's gone awry, is more than a a great threat to Christianity, but to the larger world.

Who should be most vigilant and outspoken against these threatening Christian's? Not to lay these problems with some televangelist Falwell at strat's or your feet.... but I do wish non-Falwell US Christian organizations would publicly acknowledge that Falwell/Trumpism is a big problem.

It seems like agnostics and liberals are the lead opponents of Fallwell/GOP/$$$ alliance instead of fellow Christians.

Christians do get organized/engaged in politics when it is important enough to them. Why can't they rally against Falwell Christian's BS like they do against Planned Parenthood?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: January 3 19, 3:18 pm 
Offline
Hall Of Famer
User avatar

Joined: July 15 08, 8:24 pm
Posts: 19333
Location: Low A Minors
Fat Strat wrote:
what % of people who self-identify as Christian/Evanglical/Catholic do you think are living that hypocritical lifestyle? Answer: All of them. The point of Christianity is not "you're a sinner, I'm a saint". It's "we all suck at this and we need a lot of help to get better." Grace -- undeserved favor -- through faith -- probably best considered here as hope and determination. It's not just believing really hard in some imaginary spaghetti monster. It's being convinced that there is a better way and taking mental and physical steps to enact it.



This is missing the point, I think. I will go along with the idea that we are all hypocrites in some way, but not all hypocrites are equal. I'd argue that the ones cloaking racism and sexism in Christianity are a lot worse than the ones who mostly do good things but whose main sin is not being humble about it. I am not well-read enough to know what the Bible says will happen to these different varieties of sinners, but the former kind of people definitely make the Earth a much worse place to live than the latter kind.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: January 3 19, 3:51 pm 
Offline
just can't quit you.
User avatar

Joined: April 18 06, 4:33 pm
Posts: 23944
Location: Lost
I think what most of the Christians here are saying is you can call yourself a Christian all you want, but if you don't live life the way Jesus taught - caring for others, putting other peoples needs in front of your own, loving your enemy as your friend, you are not really a Christian.

I would agree Christian hypocrites are a lot worse, since they espouse the beliefs of love and charity, but don't live that way. Hiding behind the name of a Christian while doing horrible, hateful things makes good loving Christians look bad.

I think the issue a lot of the Christians here have is being lumped in with these hypocrites, as if all Christians are guilty because of the sins of a few.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 817 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65 ... 82  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group