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PostPosted: January 3 19, 4:25 pm 
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Fat Strat wrote:
I'm consistent in what I say I believe and how I act. Response: No, you're not, at least not according to psychology/sociology. Not any more than your average Christian. I don't know you personally, so don't take that as a personal shot. We're just not consistent beings. By your own measures of goodness and significance -- which are pretty admirable, thumbs up! -- you fail most of the time. You can always do more good. You often make choices not to do good because you decide someone doesn't deserve it. You'll focus on legacy one moment then focus on self-satisfaction the next. You might feel like you're pretty consistent, but you change by mood, environment, and company and the values through which you judge yourself and your actions change with it. Moral relativism vs. absolute truth. A Christian's hypocrisy is easier to see because you can point to a written standard and see where they don't line up. It's much harder to recognize our own inconsistencies when we don't have an external source to judge ourselves against.


Ah but then we get into a slippery slope. The "I could be doing more so I'm failing." If I give $1 to a beggar but I have $5 in my pocket, I've failed. If I give two hours of my time in a shelter plating turkey on Thanksgiving but then I enjoyed myself with my family for 2 more hours that I could have been plating more turkey, I failed. And so on. I don't subscribe to that. No one can subscribe to that. We'd never go to work. We'd never have savings to retire. If we stretch it to the extreme--which is required for such a case to be made--then we get there but we can't live in extremes at the exclusion of living a life, right? (By the by, everyone watch the episode of The Good Place with Michael McKean, Season 3 Episode 9 where McKean plays a character who tries to do live exactly like this.)

So we have to live our lives. I can [expletive] around playing 2K19 on my PlayStation for a whole Saturday afternoon and it's ok if I'm living a good life. I don't need to dedicate that Saturday afternoon to an extreme overtime plan. Failure to spend time doing good is not being bad, it's not even not being good. If life were an NBA or NHL box score with a +/- that's really what we're targeting here, yeah? What did we do with our time on the court? The +/- box score does not punish us for time on the bench, and we all need some time on the bench in life to [expletive] around playing PlayStation for an afternoon or going for a walk or watching a movie. If we take the pleasures in life and say that because they're not actively doing good so they must be bad then we're all lost. Then we can really say that literally every human is a failure. We can focus on legacy or on doing good one moment and then focus on self satisfaction the next (even if you mean that quite literally.)

Fat Strat wrote:
I think that the physical world is all there is. This is my belief. Response: No, you don't. You live in the dominant culture of this world, but I guarantee that you have some kind of imagined alternative reality that you are striving for and desiring to reach. A world where you are happy, content, significant, leaving a legacy -- whatever it is, fill in your own blanks. That world exists for you even though it is not real. You hope toward it and are determined to bring it to reality, but you don't always make the choices, decisions, or steps necessary to bring what you hope for into reality. And so, it remains an alternative and the dominant culture of the world has won again... for now. This is what Bruggemann is talking about. Except he's centering that ideal hope on God's Kingdom and you center in on your own kingdom.


I promise you I don't. I feel happy, content and significant in this world.


Last edited by 33anda3rd on January 3 19, 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: January 3 19, 4:30 pm 
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just can't quit you.
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33anda3rd wrote:
Fat Strat wrote:
I'm consistent in what I say I believe and how I act. Response: No, you're not, at least not according to psychology/sociology. Not any more than your average Christian. I don't know you personally, so don't take that as a personal shot. We're just not consistent beings. By your own measures of goodness and significance -- which are pretty admirable, thumbs up! -- you fail most of the time. You can always do more good. You often make choices not to do good because you decide someone doesn't deserve it. You'll focus on legacy one moment then focus on self-satisfaction the next. You might feel like you're pretty consistent, but you change by mood, environment, and company and the values through which you judge yourself and your actions change with it. Moral relativism vs. absolute truth. A Christian's hypocrisy is easier to see because you can point to a written standard and see where they don't line up. It's much harder to recognize our own inconsistencies when we don't have an external source to judge ourselves against.


Ah but then we get into a slippery slope. The "I could be doing more so I'm failing." If I give $1 to a beggar but I have $5 in my pocket, I've failed. If I give two hours of my time in a shelter plating turkey on Thanksgiving but then I enjoyed myself with my family for 2 more hours that I could have been plating more turkey, I failed. And so on. I don't subscribe to that. No one can subscribe to that. We'd never go to work. We'd never have savings to retire. If we stretch it to the extreme--which is required for such a case to be made--then we get there but we can't live in extremes at the exclusion of living a life, right? (By the by, everyone watch the episode of The Good Place with Michael McKean, Season 3 Episode 9 where McKean plays a character who tries to do live exactly like this.)

So we have to live our lives. I can [expletive] around playing 2K19 on my PlayStation for a whole Saturday afternoon and it's ok if I'm living a good life. I don't need to dedicate that Saturday afternoon to an extreme overtime plan. Failure to spend time doing good is not being bad, it's not even not being good. If life were an NBA or NHL box score with a +/- that's really what we're targeting here, yeah? What did we do with our time on the court? The +/- box score does not punish us for time on the bench, and we all need some time on the bench in life to [expletive] around playing PlayStation for an afternoon or going for a walk or watching a movie. If we take the pleasures in life and say that because they're not actively doing good so they must be bad then we're all lost. Then we can really say that literally every human is a failure. We can focus on legacy or on doing good one moment and then focus on self satisfaction the next (even if you mean that quite literally.)


You kind of said exactly what he was implying. We all can't lead that perfect life that Christ preached, because we are all flawed, and we all need time for us. That is not a failing, and that is not hypocrisy, we are all humans, and humans are flawed creatures.


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PostPosted: January 3 19, 4:33 pm 
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wart57 wrote:
33anda3rd wrote:
Fat Strat wrote:
I'm consistent in what I say I believe and how I act. Response: No, you're not, at least not according to psychology/sociology. Not any more than your average Christian. I don't know you personally, so don't take that as a personal shot. We're just not consistent beings. By your own measures of goodness and significance -- which are pretty admirable, thumbs up! -- you fail most of the time. You can always do more good. You often make choices not to do good because you decide someone doesn't deserve it. You'll focus on legacy one moment then focus on self-satisfaction the next. You might feel like you're pretty consistent, but you change by mood, environment, and company and the values through which you judge yourself and your actions change with it. Moral relativism vs. absolute truth. A Christian's hypocrisy is easier to see because you can point to a written standard and see where they don't line up. It's much harder to recognize our own inconsistencies when we don't have an external source to judge ourselves against.


Ah but then we get into a slippery slope. The "I could be doing more so I'm failing." If I give $1 to a beggar but I have $5 in my pocket, I've failed. If I give two hours of my time in a shelter plating turkey on Thanksgiving but then I enjoyed myself with my family for 2 more hours that I could have been plating more turkey, I failed. And so on. I don't subscribe to that. No one can subscribe to that. We'd never go to work. We'd never have savings to retire. If we stretch it to the extreme--which is required for such a case to be made--then we get there but we can't live in extremes at the exclusion of living a life, right? (By the by, everyone watch the episode of The Good Place with Michael McKean, Season 3 Episode 9 where McKean plays a character who tries to do live exactly like this.)

So we have to live our lives. I can [expletive] around playing 2K19 on my PlayStation for a whole Saturday afternoon and it's ok if I'm living a good life. I don't need to dedicate that Saturday afternoon to an extreme overtime plan. Failure to spend time doing good is not being bad, it's not even not being good. If life were an NBA or NHL box score with a +/- that's really what we're targeting here, yeah? What did we do with our time on the court? The +/- box score does not punish us for time on the bench, and we all need some time on the bench in life to [expletive] around playing PlayStation for an afternoon or going for a walk or watching a movie. If we take the pleasures in life and say that because they're not actively doing good so they must be bad then we're all lost. Then we can really say that literally every human is a failure. We can focus on legacy or on doing good one moment and then focus on self satisfaction the next (even if you mean that quite literally.)


You kind of said exactly what he was implying. We all can't lead that perfect life that Christ preached, because we are all flawed, and we all need time for us. That is not a failing, and that is not hypocrisy, we are all humans, and humans are flawed creatures.


Right but that is not a sign of inconsistency or of hypocrisy.


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PostPosted: January 7 19, 4:44 pm 
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Jesus Christ Stars in an Upcoming DC Comics’ Series


https://relevantmagazine.com/culture/bo ... cs-series/


Quote:
“The Christian religion doesn’t really base itself on what He taught, particularly in the modern evangelical megachurches,” he told the outlet. “They have Him more as mascot on t-shirts to prove they’re on the winning team. [Second Coming] is about Jesus coming down and being appalled by what He sees has been done in His name by Christianity in the last 2,000 years. He goes by a megachurch, and they have a billboard of this Tom Brady-looking Jesus Christ throwing a football, and He doesn’t even recognize Himself which is a metaphor for Him not recognizing what’s been done with the religion that bears His name.”


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PostPosted: January 7 19, 6:24 pm 
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Saw a local preachers wife post.

"I don't need to care about immigrants to get into heaven, I believe Jesus is my Lord and Savior and that is enough."

Maybe that's what the bible says I don't know, but I suspect basically every Christian thinks this way at this point and that's why the religion is such cancer. She went on to say she wanted all immigrants gone and she didn't care if they had to be shot crossing the boarder.

I guess I'm at the point in my thinking where a lot of Christians are about Islam. I think Christianity needs wiped from our planet. I would peacefully accomplish this by taxing it to death.


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PostPosted: January 23 19, 12:03 pm 
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Stuff I often think about, but of course Relevant does a better job of putting it on paper

https://relevantmagazine.com/god/church ... rly-church

Quote:
HOW WE SPEND OUR MONEY

Many churches today spend most of their revenue on salaries, building mortgages and other material supplements to ministry. Look at any church budget and you’ll probably find 1 or 2 percent of church funds allocated to benevolence—helping poor people in need. Maybe another 5 percent, or 10 percent at best, is given to needs outside the church that on some level help the poor.

But such distribution of funds runs counter opposite to how the early church spent its money. The New Testament talks a lot about giving money, but rarely—if ever—talks about giving toward salaries, and it never mentions giving money toward a building. (For what it’s worth, it also never mentions giving 10 percent, which is still a staple value in modern churches.)

When the New Testament talks about giving, it refers to redistributing money to the poor—usually, poor believers outside church walls (Romans 15:22-29; 1 Corinthians 16:1-4; 2 Corinthians 8-9). When Paul declares “God loves a cheerful giver” (2 Corinthians 9:7) for instance, it was in the context of Gentile churches giving money to poor Jewish believers living in Jerusalem. In fact, Paul spilled more ink talking about giving to poor people than he did on the doctrine of justification by faith.

Jesus Himself said that giving to the poor is one of the main criteria of genuine faith (Luke 12:33, 14:33, Matt 19:16-30) and the primary means by which He’ll sort out the wicked from righteous on Judgment day (Matt 25:31-46). If we take Jesus’s words seriously—and our church budgets suggest that we don’t—our suburban churches might look a little different.

HOW WE THINK ABOUT POWER

Another modern value that was unknown to the early church is militarism. Militarism refers to the “belief or desire that a country should maintain a strong military capability and be prepared to use it aggressively to defend or promote national interests.” There’s no doubt about it—militarism profoundly shapes American values.

But it also shapes American Christian values. Military historian Andrew Bacevich has unearthed the roots of American militarism and has discovered that the man behind the curtain has been none other than the evangelical church. After much research, Bacevich concludes: “Were it not for the support offered by several tens of millions of evangelicals, militarism in this deeply and genuinely religious country becomes inconceivable.”

But the early church was unmistakably not militaristic. Early Christians were never fascinated with the power of the Roman military; rather, they clung to the rhythm of the cross, where evil is conquered not by swords and spears but by suffering and love. In fact, the most quoted verse among early Christians was Jesus’s command that we should love our enemies (Matthew 5:44); it was the John 3:16 of the first few centuries.

Today, it’s buried under a pile of caveats and footnotes—we can’t really love all our enemies. When it comes to people perceived as threats, most people today—ironically, even Christians—prefer justice to grace.

Maybe Christians should serve in the military or use violence as a last resort to defend the innocent. These are tough questions to answer. But when the Church has become the turbo engine behind the military machine—to aggressively defend or promote national interests—we flee from our early church roots, whose allegiance to God’s Kingdom demoted their allegiance to Rome’s kingdom.



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PostPosted: January 23 19, 1:34 pm 
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I can’t speak for other churches but I have my church 2018 and 2019 budgets and financial reports in front of me right now. About 1/3 goes towards salaries. Supplies, insurance, maintenance, and utilities run about 1/3 and the other 1/3 goes to missions at home and abroad.


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PostPosted: January 23 19, 1:56 pm 
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Diddy wrote:
I can’t speak for other churches but I have my church 2018 and 2019 budgets and financial reports in front of me right now. About 1/3 goes towards salaries. Supplies, insurance, maintenance, and utilities run about 1/3 and the other 1/3 goes to missions at home and abroad.

That’s awesome.

I wonder about these “mega churches”


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PostPosted: January 23 19, 2:12 pm 
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Tim wrote:
Jesus Christ Stars in an Upcoming DC Comics’ Series


https://relevantmagazine.com/culture/bo ... cs-series/


Quote:
“The Christian religion doesn’t really base itself on what He taught, particularly in the modern evangelical megachurches,” he told the outlet. “They have Him more as mascot on t-shirts to prove they’re on the winning team. [Second Coming] is about Jesus coming down and being appalled by what He sees has been done in His name by Christianity in the last 2,000 years. He goes by a megachurch, and they have a billboard of this Tom Brady-looking Jesus Christ throwing a football, and He doesn’t even recognize Himself which is a metaphor for Him not recognizing what’s been done with the religion that bears His name.”


National Lampoon was on this back in the 70s.

Image


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PostPosted: January 23 19, 2:13 pm 
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Tim wrote:
Diddy wrote:
I can’t speak for other churches but I have my church 2018 and 2019 budgets and financial reports in front of me right now. About 1/3 goes towards salaries. Supplies, insurance, maintenance, and utilities run about 1/3 and the other 1/3 goes to missions at home and abroad.

That’s awesome.

I wonder about these “mega churches”


I’m sure they have a lot more then the 0 we have on mortgages. We haven’t undertaken any big building expansion since 2018 though. That was about 20%of our church annual budget but was fully funded before it started. We’ve done something on a similar scale about every 5 years and all have been funded before they started. 1999 was a multimillion dollar expansion that was only partially funded but was paid off in 3 years. These are financed through memorials and additional fund drives. Our salaries are probably high because we pay the salary for one other church’s pastor, and the partial salary of another church’s pastor. We could put them under local mission fund I suppose.


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