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PostPosted: April 23 18, 8:56 am 
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The title of that video is clickbait but the content of it is actually good.

1) White evangelicals acted more "white" than "evangelical"
2) The prosperity gospel: Rich = Blessed
3) Trump explicitly promised to give white evangelicals more power (such as allowing churches to preach politics)
4) In a single election cycle, evangelicals went from the segment that said morals of the candidate mattered the most to the segment that said morals mattered the least.

I missed when Pat Robertson said he had a dream where he went to heaven and saw Trump sitting at the right hand of God....but yikes.


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PostPosted: April 23 18, 8:59 am 
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Reza Aslan is a Muslim named after a lion in a child’s book so should be dismissed as unreliable.


Is there anything grosser than Prosperity Theology?


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PostPosted: April 23 18, 9:03 am 
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He gives another example or two of people who have seemingly started worshipping Trump, instead of merely supporting him. He worries that if Trump's presidency does end up being cut short by scandal, that it will enrage this group of worshippers and mean really bad things for our country.

This is my biggest fear, honestly. Trump himself is bad enough, but what he is doing may be opening the door for an even worse politician to come in.


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PostPosted: April 23 18, 9:16 am 
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Evangelicals getting too much scrutiny for GOP Trump enabling relative to whacked-out fundamentalist Catholics. The latter are more powerful and historically entrenched in political process. The evangelical Trumpers are johnny-come-lately yahoos by comparison.

Encouraging as Pope Francis is, the US bishops are practically a wing of the GOP. This doesn't necessarily reflect Catholics as a whole (i.e. my mother). But adherents to the male hierarchy, latin mass, anti-abortion people are prominent. The KCs. Gingrich, Bannon, Sean Hannity, Gorka. Laura Ingraham, Ann Wagner, Paul Ryan, John Kelly, Mattis.


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PostPosted: April 23 18, 9:33 am 
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Freed Roger wrote:
Evangelicals getting too much scrutiny for GOP Trump enabling relative to whacked-out fundamentalist Catholics. The latter are more powerful and historically entrenched in political process. The evangelical Trumpers are yahoos by comparison.

Encouraging as Pope Francis is, the US bishops are practically a wing of the GOP. This doesn't necessarily reflect Catholics as a whole (i.e. my mother). But adherents to the male hierarchy, latin mass, anti-abortion people are prominent. The KCs. Gingrich, Bannon, Sean Hannity, Gorka. Laura Ingraham, Ann Wagner, Paul Ryan, John Kelly, Mattis.


That is a fair point but the Catholic vote was a lot more split than the eveangelical vote. Trump won Catholics like 52% to 45%. Trump won 67% of evangelicals and 81% of white eveangelicals.

I don't have the numbers but I bet Catholics in Congress are also more split party-wise than evangelicals in Congress. Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden are probably the two most prominent Catholic politicians that are Democrats. John Kerry is Catholic. The Kennedy Clan. Etc.

I'm not saying that the right wing Catholics aren't bad though. They are really awful. There are just fewer of them than evangelicals.


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PostPosted: April 23 18, 9:46 am 
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pioneer98 wrote:
Freed Roger wrote:
Evangelicals getting too much scrutiny for GOP Trump enabling relative to whacked-out fundamentalist Catholics. The latter are more powerful and historically entrenched in political process. The evangelical Trumpers are yahoos by comparison.

Encouraging as Pope Francis is, the US bishops are practically a wing of the GOP. This doesn't necessarily reflect Catholics as a whole (i.e. my mother). But adherents to the male hierarchy, latin mass, anti-abortion people are prominent. The KCs. Gingrich, Bannon, Sean Hannity, Gorka. Laura Ingraham, Ann Wagner, Paul Ryan, John Kelly, Mattis.


That is a fair point but the Catholic vote was a lot more split than the eveangelical vote. Trump won Catholics like 52% to 45%. Trump won 67% of evangelicals and 81% of white eveangelicals.

I don't have the numbers but I bet Catholics in Congress are also more split party-wise than evangelicals in Congress. Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden are probably the two most prominent Catholic politicians that are Democrats. John Kerry is Catholic. The Kennedy Clan. Etc.

I'm not saying that the right wing Catholics aren't bad though. They are really awful. There are just fewer of them than evangelicals.


I well aware of old school Kennedy social justice dems, since I was raised as one(Admittedly some bs in that term but leaving it be as an identifier).

Also, wasnt really commenting on the #s of voters, but more on the clout factor. It is deeper. They make this [expletive] show possible. Where there are US Evangelicals that have spoken out as Evangelicals (not enough), I have yet to hear of US Catholics of power -speaking out as a Catholic against GOP Trump. They are the worst


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PostPosted: April 23 18, 10:05 am 
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Freed Roger wrote:
pioneer98 wrote:
Freed Roger wrote:
Evangelicals getting too much scrutiny for GOP Trump enabling relative to whacked-out fundamentalist Catholics. The latter are more powerful and historically entrenched in political process. The evangelical Trumpers are yahoos by comparison.

Encouraging as Pope Francis is, the US bishops are practically a wing of the GOP. This doesn't necessarily reflect Catholics as a whole (i.e. my mother). But adherents to the male hierarchy, latin mass, anti-abortion people are prominent. The KCs. Gingrich, Bannon, Sean Hannity, Gorka. Laura Ingraham, Ann Wagner, Paul Ryan, John Kelly, Mattis.


That is a fair point but the Catholic vote was a lot more split than the eveangelical vote. Trump won Catholics like 52% to 45%. Trump won 67% of evangelicals and 81% of white eveangelicals.

I don't have the numbers but I bet Catholics in Congress are also more split party-wise than evangelicals in Congress. Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden are probably the two most prominent Catholic politicians that are Democrats. John Kerry is Catholic. The Kennedy Clan. Etc.

I'm not saying that the right wing Catholics aren't bad though. They are really awful. There are just fewer of them than evangelicals.


I well aware of old school Kennedy social justice dems, since I was raised as one(Admittedly some bs in that term but leaving it be as an identifier).

Also, wasnt really commenting on the #s of voters, but more on the clout factor. It is deeper. They make this [expletive] show possible. Where there are US Evangelicals that have spoken out as Evangelicals (not enough), I have yet to hear of US Catholics of power -speaking out as a Catholic against GOP Trump. They are the worst


This is a good point. It's another media driven narrative. White Evangelicals are given all this scrutiny and blah blah blah. Meanwhile other religious groups Trump won fly under the radar.

This reminds me of all the articles written about "white working class" Trump voters in Appalachia or rural Ohio or Indiana or whatever. Meanwhile, the rich jerks in wealthy suburbs that Trump won go unnoticed...and like what you are saying about right wing Catholics....those rich suburban people are really where Republican power comes from.


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PostPosted: April 23 18, 8:38 pm 
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pioneer98 wrote:
I don't think this aspect of religion in America can be ignored. The megachurch guys with mansions. Scientology with basically tax free resorts (I know this is the Christian thread, so I digress). But I think there is a link here between some Christian extremism and big money. There is a reason Ted Cruz chose a certain Evangelical church as his venue when he visited my town, for example. All these things are linked together.


Not trying to address all your points here, but the “megachurch guys with mansions” represents a miniscule minority of pastors and church leaders. Not sure of the exact stats, but 80-90% of churches are running under 100 people in worship and their pastor is likely bi-vocational or their salaries are supplemented by their denomination (which is not the norm). Most of the guys you are referring to don’t make their money from their church salaries. It comes through book sales, conferences, etc. and that is subject to taxation. The last study I saw had pastors as one of the most underpaid professions in America.

Secondly, if we do away with the non-profit status of churches and require them to pay taxes on contributions, then churches get an official seat at the government table, and the state gets a seat at the church table. Separation of church and state would be null. Separation of church and state protects both the state from the church and the church from the state; some churches don’t necessarily do a great job of upholding that separation, and vice versa, but it’s critical for the integrity of both.

There are always abuses and people that take advantage of systems, but overall that separation is one of the core ideologies of our democracy and one of the most successful. (I.e. despite a historically large percentage of Christians in America since our founding, we have never even remotely resembled a theocracy.)


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PostPosted: April 23 18, 8:58 pm 
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Fat Strat wrote:
pioneer98 wrote:
I don't think this aspect of religion in America can be ignored. The megachurch guys with mansions. Scientology with basically tax free resorts (I know this is the Christian thread, so I digress). But I think there is a link here between some Christian extremism and big money. There is a reason Ted Cruz chose a certain Evangelical church as his venue when he visited my town, for example. All these things are linked together.


Not trying to address all your points here, but the “megachurch guys with mansions” represents a miniscule minority of pastors and church leaders. Not sure of the exact stats, but 80-90% of churches are running under 100 people in worship and their pastor is likely bi-vocational or their salaries are supplemented by their denomination (which is not the norm). Most of the guys you are referring to don’t make their money from their church salaries. It comes through book sales, conferences, etc. and that is subject to taxation. The last study I saw had pastors as one of the most underpaid professions in America.

Secondly, if we do away with the non-profit status of churches and require them to pay taxes on contributions, then churches get an official seat at the government table, and the state gets a seat at the church table. Separation of church and state would be null. Separation of church and state protects both the state from the church and the church from the state; some churches don’t necessarily do a great job of upholding that separation, and vice versa, but it’s critical for the integrity of both.

There are always abuses and people that take advantage of systems, but overall that separation is one of the core ideologies of our democracy and one of the most successful. (I.e. despite a historically large percentage of Christians in America since our founding, we have never even remotely resembled a theocracy.)


I disagree. Why do we have laws about not allowing gays to marry, not allowing alcohol sales, or alcohol sales on Sunday, on some places several businesses are not allowed to be open on Sunday. Why are there national holidays around Christian events?

It's time to tax the living [expletive] out of churches. They have run our govt for as long as this country has been around. It's time for them to pay their fair share.


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PostPosted: April 23 18, 9:17 pm 
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Ok, you don’t like the influence of Christians on government. So your solution is to legalize, affirm and empower religious institutions to directly and overtly influence the government.

Also, if you tax churches, then you will also have to start taxing all non-profits, because that’s the only real special status that churches hold. For tax purposes, a church isn’t really any different from any other non-profit, except we can’t apply to the government for funding... which would also have to change if churches are taxed. Go ahead and destroy the non-profit service community out of spite for some Christians. That’ll show ‘em.


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