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 Post subject: Re: Right wing violence
PostPosted: August 8 19, 7:44 am 
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33anda3rd wrote:
I think that this mass shooting by white supremacists stuff is going to be politically very very bad for the GOP and especially Trump.

1. The guys still at 42% - at the top of his range. As theNYT points out, millions have gone from being skeptical, to liking him.

33anda3rd wrote:
I used to think it was kind of a weird idea, that Trump would get voted out and we'd end up drowning in violence, but after this week I see that as a very distinct possibility and it's kind of frightening. If Trumps approval rate--42.1% today--isn't under 40% after the next round of polling, that's a really harrowing sign.

2. If he gets voted out, there will be an uptick in violence - to keep him in the White House. He's not going anywhere.


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 Post subject: Re: Right wing violence
PostPosted: August 8 19, 12:51 pm 
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Sorry if posted already- the atlantic
A Reformed White Nationalist Says the Worst Is Yet to Come
Quote:
Picciolini: Unfortunately, I think that the underpinnings of the ideology have always been there. The extremists were on the fringe, and very visible, but other people weren’t willing to voice those beliefs. Thirty years ago, when I was in the movement, we were turning off the average American white racists who didn’t want to be so open and visible about those beliefs. So there was this effort to make it more mainstream, to grow the hair out, turn in the “boots for suits.” I never thought we would have a social and political climate that really kind of brought it to the foreground. Because it’s starting to seem less like a fringe ideology and more like a mainstream ideology

Quote:
Picciolini: I really think we need to get away from using the term lone wolves, because while they are single actors, they are part of a larger ecosystem. I just think it’s going to get worse before it gets better. They’re all trying to outdo each other, not just the last person, but Timothy McVeigh. Terrorists will always find another way to do it. I have to ask myself, Do we have white-nationalist airline pilots? There have to be. I knew people in powerful positions, in politics, in law enforcement, who were secretly white nationalists. I think we’d be stupid and selfish to think that we don’t have those in the truck-driving industry.



Last edited by Freed Roger on August 8 19, 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Right wing violence
PostPosted: August 8 19, 1:07 pm 
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33anda3rd wrote:
I think that this mass shooting by white supremacists stuff is going to be politically very very bad for the GOP and especially Trump. Literally the two worst places politically for this to happen it happened, along with the protests accompanying his visit and his reported meltdown on AF1 that "no one is defending me!" TX, which is going red to pink to maybe purple very quickly and could soon be blue, and OH which started turning more safely red recently but is still only a 5-point margin type of state and carries a big electoral college load.

The thing that worries, me, though is that once we get back to normal, when there is no longer POTUS inciting hate crimes, the hate crimes might actually go up, as the "you will not replace us" angry white men get angrier over reversal of Trump social policies. I used to think it was kind of a weird idea, that Trump would get voted out and we'd end up drowning in violence, but after this week I see that as a very distinct possibility and it's kind of frightening. If Trumps approval rate--42.1% today--isn't under 40% after the next round of polling, that's a really harrowing sign.


I could see a very real increase in violence and calls for a "civil war" or forming a "modern militia" if Trump loses to a minority candidate. Some people will act on those calls, even if they don't gain national steam, and that will be a terrible thing. If AOC was running this time and she beat Trump, we might actually have armed conflicts across the Midwest/Mtn West. Not sure that would be the case with say, Warren or Biden, but it will still be a mess.

It's only going to get worse as the candidates begin to pare down and Reps. begin to engage in another election cycle in higher numbers.


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 Post subject: Re: Right wing violence
PostPosted: August 8 19, 1:12 pm 
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So....this is a thing that was talked a LOT about in 2016. The n-word. Not that one. Normalization. People like me were screaming on this board and elsewhere that we were normalizing racism, normalizing sexism, normalizing xenophobia, and that nothing in the Trump campaign was at all normal or healthy or ok or decent. And everyone had their reasons. "You can't just call Trump supporters racists", they'd argue, rationalizing their support or the support of their friends/family/neighbors for Trump. "Trump isn't racist, he just calls it like it is/calls it like he sees it." "Hillary is just as bad."

And we still have them here on this board. Hillary is just as bad, she [expletive] up Guatemala. Obama was just as bad. Bill Clinton was just as bad. Know what? They're not just as bad. And when you say they are just as bad, then the guy who is screaming about protecting our country from brown people and joking with people at rallies about shooting them and insisting that brown people born here "go back to where they came from" is normalized because of your false equivalencies.

This is the worst it's ever been, and it's probably the worst it will be for a long time. We'll get Biden or something after 2020, and he won't be great, but he won't even approach this bad. Then 60 years from now it will get this bad again, maybe worse. But there is no equivalency now or in the modern history of the US (from, say 1900 to present). Nothing else is this bad. Pretending that other things that are bad are this bad normalizes this, and contributes as much to the culture we have now as Trump himself.


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 Post subject: Re: Right wing violence
PostPosted: August 8 19, 1:28 pm 
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Fat Strat wrote:
33anda3rd wrote:
I think that this mass shooting by white supremacists stuff is going to be politically very very bad for the GOP and especially Trump. Literally the two worst places politically for this to happen it happened, along with the protests accompanying his visit and his reported meltdown on AF1 that "no one is defending me!" TX, which is going red to pink to maybe purple very quickly and could soon be blue, and OH which started turning more safely red recently but is still only a 5-point margin type of state and carries a big electoral college load.

The thing that worries, me, though is that once we get back to normal, when there is no longer POTUS inciting hate crimes, the hate crimes might actually go up, as the "you will not replace us" angry white men get angrier over reversal of Trump social policies. I used to think it was kind of a weird idea, that Trump would get voted out and we'd end up drowning in violence, but after this week I see that as a very distinct possibility and it's kind of frightening. If Trumps approval rate--42.1% today--isn't under 40% after the next round of polling, that's a really harrowing sign.


I could see a very real increase in violence and calls for a "civil war" or forming a "modern militia" if Trump loses to a minority candidate. Some people will act on those calls, even if they don't gain national steam, and that will be a terrible thing. If AOC was running this time and she beat Trump, we might actually have armed conflicts across the Midwest/Mtn West. Not sure that would be the case with say, Warren or Biden, but it will still be a mess.

It's only going to get worse as the candidates begin to pare down and Reps. begin to engage in another election cycle in higher numbers.


I'm gonna disagree with you both and say that a non-white President would not lead to an increase in political violence. We did not see that under Obama, for example, even though FBI and Homeland Security folks did identify a rise in white supremacist violence/domestic terrorism as a threat during the early days of his admin. This stuff all escalated after Trump came along and dialed the racist rhetoric up to 11. He has since all but come out and declared himself a card carrying member of the KKK.

These white militia guys are a bunch of weekend warrior larpers. Any efforts to start mini-rebellions around the country during a non-Trump presidency would be squelched post haste. Local police departments could handle it even. Hell, half of them have leftover Iraq war armored vehicles and all that war gear. These 8chan guys are not soldiers. Maybe we would see some lashing out from random losers angry that Trump lost but I don't think we'd see a sustained white supremacist campaign of violence with Trump out of office.


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 Post subject: Re: Right wing violence
PostPosted: August 8 19, 1:38 pm 
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33anda3rd wrote:

This is the worst it's ever been, and it's probably the worst it will be for a long time. We'll get Biden or something after 2020, and he won't be great, but he won't even approach this bad. Then 60 years from now it will get this bad again, maybe worse. But there is no equivalency now or in the modern history of the US (from, say 1900 to present). Nothing else is this bad. Pretending that other things that are bad are this bad normalizes this, and contributes as much to the culture we have now as Trump himself.


No, it is not the worst it's ever been. What is so shocking about this moment are the echos of the past when racist violence was waaaaaaaaaay worse. When bombings and lynchings and murders were a fact of life and elected officials were openly members of the KKK. Woodrow freakin' Wilson purged the federal bureaucracy of African Americans after WWI and nobody said jack. 2019 is the 100-year anniversary of the 1919 Chicago race riots where white mobs spent days shooting and killing black people at random while the police watched. We are nowhere near the level of white violence against minorities that was the norm for a very long time.

That said, Trump is trying to take us back to those scary times, but he is not going to get there. Every day, the US population increases by 8,000 people. 90% of new people being created in the United States are non-white. 1 in 6 marriages today is an interracial marriage. [expletive] is ugly right now but we are not going back.


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 Post subject: Re: Right wing violence
PostPosted: August 8 19, 1:58 pm 
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G. Keenan wrote:
I'm gonna disagree with you both and say that a non-white President would not lead to an increase in political violence. We did not see that under Obama, for example, even though FBI and Homeland Security folks did identify a rise in white supremacist violence/domestic terrorism as a threat during the early days of his admin. This stuff all escalated after Trump came along and dialed the racist rhetoric up to 11. He has since all but come out and declared himself a card carrying member of the KKK.

These white militia guys are a bunch of weekend warrior larpers. Any efforts to start mini-rebellions around the country during a non-Trump presidency would be squelched post haste. Local police departments could handle it even. Hell, half of them have leftover Iraq war armored vehicles and all that war gear. These 8chan guys are not soldiers. Maybe we would see some lashing out from random losers angry that Trump lost but I don't think we'd see a sustained white supremacist campaign of violence with Trump out of office.


Considering the rapid progression (progression as in change not progressive thinking) of our society, Obama's campaign against McCain was ages ago and it sure feels different right now. There's a level of one-sided nationalistic fervor that didn't necessarily exist before, at least not in its present form, and that's coupled with a sense of empowerment among some white conservatives. I'm not worried so much about the militia types as I am about local, unorganized idiots rising up to some kind of call for action. A good example is that idiot in Montana who choke-slammed a kid for not taking his hat off during the national anthem at a rodeo in Montana (I'm sure you saw it, if not you can look it up). Stuff like that could become almost commonplace and guys like that feel empowered and almost obligated to take action, often violent action, to defend their America. Or a bunch of idiots with guns march on local government buildings to "stand up against the socialist takeover". And, yes, the police or whoever can deal with those easy enough -- it's not like we're actually going to have a civil war -- but an escalation of violence and more widespread violence is still a horrible thing.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly hope that doesn't happen, but I really do think this is going to get a lot worse before it gets any better.


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 Post subject: Re: Right wing violence
PostPosted: August 8 19, 2:46 pm 
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Fat Strat wrote:
G. Keenan wrote:
I'm gonna disagree with you both and say that a non-white President would not lead to an increase in political violence. We did not see that under Obama, for example, even though FBI and Homeland Security folks did identify a rise in white supremacist violence/domestic terrorism as a threat during the early days of his admin. This stuff all escalated after Trump came along and dialed the racist rhetoric up to 11. He has since all but come out and declared himself a card carrying member of the KKK.

These white militia guys are a bunch of weekend warrior larpers. Any efforts to start mini-rebellions around the country during a non-Trump presidency would be squelched post haste. Local police departments could handle it even. Hell, half of them have leftover Iraq war armored vehicles and all that war gear. These 8chan guys are not soldiers. Maybe we would see some lashing out from random losers angry that Trump lost but I don't think we'd see a sustained white supremacist campaign of violence with Trump out of office.


Considering the rapid progression (progression as in change not progressive thinking) of our society, Obama's campaign against McCain was ages ago and it sure feels different right now. There's a level of one-sided nationalistic fervor that didn't necessarily exist before, at least not in its present form, and that's coupled with a sense of empowerment among some white conservatives. I'm not worried so much about the militia types as I am about local, unorganized idiots rising up to some kind of call for action. A good example is that idiot in Montana who choke-slammed a kid for not taking his hat off during the national anthem at a rodeo in Montana (I'm sure you saw it, if not you can look it up). Stuff like that could become almost commonplace and guys like that feel empowered and almost obligated to take action, often violent action, to defend their America. Or a bunch of idiots with guns march on local government buildings to "stand up against the socialist takeover". And, yes, the police or whoever can deal with those easy enough -- it's not like we're actually going to have a civil war -- but an escalation of violence and more widespread violence is still a horrible thing.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly hope that doesn't happen, but I really do think this is going to get a lot worse before it gets any better.


Agree with you on all that. It is going to get worse before it gets better. Trump is literally campaigning to keep himself out of prison. The stakes are huge for him and he's a monster. He will go as low as he needs to to keep the base aggrieved and angry. Maybe some other politician will come along and exploit these fools just as effectively but, looking around today, I don't know who that person is. Trump is super talented at peddling complete bullsh*t.


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 Post subject: Re: Right wing violence
PostPosted: August 8 19, 2:57 pm 
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Coming up on 5 years since Ferguson. While I don't think the racial injustice situation with police is satisfactory, I am glad protests that sometimes provided cover for violence vandalism theft have gone away.
Imagine if situation like that occurred occurred under Trump. What would the Oathkeepers do then? Charlottesville was closest thing, and well....

I agree with 33rd, it is normalization, but also just fatigue is a big factor.


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 Post subject: Re: Right wing violence
PostPosted: August 8 19, 3:39 pm 
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G. Keenan wrote:
33anda3rd wrote:

This is the worst it's ever been, and it's probably the worst it will be for a long time. We'll get Biden or something after 2020, and he won't be great, but he won't even approach this bad. Then 60 years from now it will get this bad again, maybe worse. But there is no equivalency now or in the modern history of the US (from, say 1900 to present). Nothing else is this bad. Pretending that other things that are bad are this bad normalizes this, and contributes as much to the culture we have now as Trump himself.


No, it is not the worst it's ever been. What is so shocking about this moment are the echos of the past when racist violence was waaaaaaaaaay worse. When bombings and lynchings and murders were a fact of life and elected officials were openly members of the KKK. Woodrow freakin' Wilson purged the federal bureaucracy of African Americans after WWI and nobody said jack. 2019 is the 100-year anniversary of the 1919 Chicago race riots where white mobs spent days shooting and killing black people at random while the police watched. We are nowhere near the level of white violence against minorities that was the norm for a very long time.

That said, Trump is trying to take us back to those scary times, but he is not going to get there. Every day, the US population increases by 8,000 people. 90% of new people being created in the United States are non-white. 1 in 6 marriages today is an interracial marriage. [expletive] is ugly right now but we are not going back.


The difference is the country’s direction at the particular inflection point. Since at least the Civil War, as a country, we moved forward. We added rights, we did not take them away. We fought nazis, we did not elect one to be our POTUS. When those things were happening, America was progressing. Parts of the country were clinging to the past and refusing to progress with the rest of the country, but there was forward movement.

Now we are regressing. We had our first black POTUS, had a woman run, we have gay marriage, we have legal weed, we have trans-friendly public restrooms but then suddenly, BOOM, we go waaaaaayyyyyyy backward. That’s why it’s worse now, because you can feel the country trying to go backward instead of forward with a POTUS who supports rather than condemns it—and make no mistake, his teleprompter speech condemn it it was a bald-faced lie, an attempt at gaslighting the country as it flies directly in opposition to everything else he says.


Last edited by 33anda3rd on August 8 19, 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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