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 Post subject: Re: Green New Deal
PostPosted: December 5 18, 11:53 am 
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Schlich wrote:
What do you mean by 'current' infrastructure investments? Our transportation grid needs to be redone anyways by many measures, and it would have a huge environmental impact. I was under the impression that rehauling transportation would be one of the industries highly affected by transferring to a green society, i thought that was a given?

For example, in transportation it would mean expanding and electrifying the rail network and structuring the market to push goods off trucks and onto trains. We should build more dense cities to reduce local transport fuel use.

That doesn’t solve the problem of how to fuel planes, but the focus should be on what we can do today.


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 Post subject: Re: Green New Deal
PostPosted: December 5 18, 12:05 pm 
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Arthur Dent wrote:
That doesn’t solve the problem of how to fuel planes


Give everyone 6 weeks paid vacation and bring back zeppelins.


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 Post subject: Re: Green New Deal
PostPosted: December 5 18, 12:15 pm 
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Schlich wrote:
Sorry but "we need gas for planes and trains" doesnt really fly when the whole point of the GND is to figure out how we get around issues such as precisely those.

also "we'll have this gas just sitting around so we might as well burn it, cant just bury it" doesn't fly with me either. Bury that [expletive]. If we're carbon neutral/carbon negative that's another thing.


But why do we need to find a way around all these issues? What is the true goal? Net zero or negative carbon emissions. There are multiple avenues to that goal, some more realistic and politically feasible than others.

"Might as well burn it" is again completely missing the point. We aren't just burning it. We're using it to generate upwards of 70% of our current energy needs. We have better options than coal already. Nearly 100% is used for electrical generation / steam power. Natural gas is a better solution among carbon-based sources, and nuclear/renewables are available to step in. In that case, we are using it basically because it is cheap and available. That's not the case for oil and natural gas right now. We don't have better alternatives for transportation for the foreseeable future, without completely changing not only the US infrastructure model but the entire world economic model.

There's a fine line between optimistic genius and naivete. All I'm asking is that we make sure we're on the right side of that line.


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 Post subject: Re: Green New Deal
PostPosted: December 5 18, 1:22 pm 
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Let’s go nuclear! Best option we have


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 Post subject: Re: Green New Deal
PostPosted: December 5 18, 1:53 pm 
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Don't tone police me bro!
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The Green New Deal Is Designed to Win


Quote:
These are enormous demands that would require either many small pieces of technical legislation or a new executive climate-change agency. Yet they do not alone make the Green New Deal. The single most crucial aspect of the Green New Deal is its proposed job guarantee, a controversial policy that says that every American can have a job with the government if they want one. Data for Progress, a leftist advocacy group, claims that the Green New Deal could generate 10 million new jobs across the country over 10 years.

This policy—a job for every American who wants one—reflects what the party learned from fighting Obamacare’s repeal. Obamacare provides a revealing view into how economists think about policy versus how people experience it. That is, as far as policy makers are concerned, Obamacare comprises a set of clever tweaks and rules meant to change how insurance markets work and lower the cost of health care. Before the law passed, Democratic lawmakers cared deeply about getting those tweaks right.

Yet Obamacare didn’t survive because those new rules worked. They did work, but, in fact, voters hate them. Instead, Obamacare survived because it gave two new superpowers to voters. The first was the power never to be denied health insurance for preexisting conditions, and the second was free or cheap health insurance through Medicaid. The reason Americans jammed the Capitol Hill switchboards last year to protest the repeal—and pulled the lever for Democrats in November—wasn’t that they valued Obamacare’s elegant cost-control mechanism. They wanted to keep their superpowers.


“People who are receiving benefits, they’re going to react pretty strongly to that being taken away from them,” said the political scientist and UC Berkeley professor Paul Pierson in a conversation with Vox last year. “A taxpayer is paying for a lot of stuff and cares a little bit about each thing, but the person who’s receiving the benefits is going to care enormously about that.”

Fixing climate change will include lots of technocratic tweaks, lots of bills about dirt. They will be hard to defend against later repeal. So it would be nice if lawmakers could wed them to a new benefit, a superpower that people will fight for years after passage. Hence the job guarantee—a universal promise of employment meant to win over Americans in general and create more union jobs in particular.


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 Post subject: Re: Green New Deal
PostPosted: December 5 18, 2:20 pm 
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Arthur Dent wrote:
That doesn’t solve the problem of how to fuel planes


Or ocean freighters, which is a critical part of the world economy.
What excites me is if we can eliminate car, truck, bus & train emissions, that's a big dent in the transportation footprint. What frustrates me is that technology already exists. It's just a matter of phasing out the old tech.


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 Post subject: Re: Green New Deal
PostPosted: December 11 18, 10:43 am 
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This is an article about the effects of a green (or carbon) tax on the poor, written by a BBC environment analyst:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-46522126


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 Post subject: Re: Green New Deal
PostPosted: December 11 18, 11:19 am 
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mikechamp wrote:
Arthur Dent wrote:
That doesn’t solve the problem of how to fuel planes


Or ocean freighters, which is a critical part of the world economy.
What excites me is if we can eliminate car, truck, bus & train emissions, that's a big dent in the transportation footprint. What frustrates me is that technology already exists. It's just a matter of phasing out the old tech.

Thought you or someone posted about Maersk saying they were planning on being carbon free by 2050.


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 Post subject: Re: Green New Deal
PostPosted: December 11 18, 11:21 am 
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mikechamp wrote:
Arthur Dent wrote:
That doesn’t solve the problem of how to fuel planes


Or ocean freighters, which is a critical part of the world economy.
What excites me is if we can eliminate car, truck, bus & train emissions, that's a big dent in the transportation footprint. What frustrates me is that technology already exists. It's just a matter of phasing out the old tech.


Make ocean freighters wind powered. Just use a really big ass sail. No resources and it’s how they use to do it


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 Post subject: Re: Green New Deal
PostPosted: December 11 18, 11:48 am 
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lukethedrifter wrote:
mikechamp wrote:
Arthur Dent wrote:
That doesn’t solve the problem of how to fuel planes


Or ocean freighters, which is a critical part of the world economy.
What excites me is if we can eliminate car, truck, bus & train emissions, that's a big dent in the transportation footprint. What frustrates me is that technology already exists. It's just a matter of phasing out the old tech.

Thought you or someone posted about Maersk saying they were planning on being carbon free by 2050.


Wasn't me, unless I already forgot what I posted. But pretty sure it wasn't me. I'd like to read more about it, though.


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