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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Election
PostPosted: March 16 19, 11:24 am 
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Freed Roger wrote:
Militant progressivism won't help matters in OH PA WI NC etc.

This is a weird argument to make after the centrist neoliberal technocrat lost in those states to a clown.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Election
PostPosted: March 16 19, 12:35 pm 
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greenback44 wrote:
Freed Roger wrote:
Militant progressivism won't help matters in OH PA WI NC etc.

This is a weird argument to make after the centrist neoliberal technocrat lost in those states to a clown.


Not sure it is an argument more than ramble. Clarified, me or whoever voting for progressive du jour in MO will do nothing for primary in other states and then the general. It was in response to lack of spine quip.

Who I want to win primary doesn't mean squat same as 2016. may make me feel good to vote for [insert favorite] but not kidding myself that it serves some noble purpose of the primary.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Election
PostPosted: March 16 19, 5:07 pm 
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Freed Roger wrote:
Schlich wrote:
Or, yknow, we could all collectively grow a spine and understand that primaries serve a function and its not all kumbayah :-s

The function of primaries so far has been to maintain status quo with establishment dem candidates.

Getting my preferred dem non-kumbaya candidate doesn't mean squat as someone from Missou-rah. Militant progressivism won't help matters in OH PA WI NC etc.


Hillary lost to Obama. That was not supposed to happen.
Hillary had a hell of a tougher fight v Sanders than anyone banked on.
Trump completely overturned the apple cart of establishment GOP. That was for sure not supposed to happen.
AOC was the first person to even run against Crowley in her district, and she beat him in their primary.
Primaries are not foregone conclusions.

I agree, as a militant progressive but also a practical person, that militant progressivism will not win in those states. Maybe WI, but not NC OH or PA. Optics play, identity politics play, personality plays. Policy plays, but it's one of a lot of factors. OH, PA, WI didn't turn to Trump because of his tax policy they turned to him because of how forcefully he told them he'd close off the border and stop people from taking their jobs. The forcefulness of the message, the inherent racism in it, and the cult of personality of the candidate were more important than the actual policy though. If policy really mattered WI would not have gone from Obama to Trump, they'd have picked Clinton, whose policies are aligned almost entirely with Obama's.

Every time we have an election someone wins their party's nomination and then they lose the subsequent general election, whether it's HRC 16 or George HW 92. The primary is the party saying 'this is who will carry our torch' and sometimes the country is just not in the place and time when that party can win (George HW 92 for example) and sometimes the candidate is garbage (Goldwater) and sometimes the candidate is not right for that time in America (Hillary 16). The Dems need to nominate the right candidate for this particular time around based in part on what that candidate believes but also on if (s)he can win. Because winning 2020 is the single most important thing in the world. The literal entire world. It pains me to say this because I love his policies but that is not our progressive icon. If he can't win one huge state like TX or NY or IL or CA and can't be competitive in southern states and his entire appeal is blue-collar rust belt states, pacific NW crunchy states, and tiny New England states then he can't win a general election against Trump.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Election
PostPosted: March 16 19, 8:57 pm 
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Sanders would win CA, IL , and NY against Trump easily. And his challenge in Texas would be the same as most any Dem candidate. Hillary is a more centrist candidate than anyone running this time except maybe Biden or Beto, and she didn’t win any state in the South unless you count VA and MD. Sanders won the primary in most of the states she lost in the general.

Nobody knows who can win what right now outside the party strongholds in the general. People who say Bernie would have won 2016 don’t know that either. None of this happens in a vacuum. Things will happen along the way, stories will come out, etc... The economy could improve or get a lot worse, a war could start. There are 15 candidates and probably a lot of vote splitting in the first couple of weeks. I think any of 6 or 7 have a chance to do well in the primary, and they all would have a great chance in the general.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Election
PostPosted: March 17 19, 12:13 am 
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Blah blah blah here we go with the shaming and dick waving just because someone called beto a sell out cry me a river jesus christ


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Election
PostPosted: March 17 19, 12:15 am 
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Don't tone police me bro!
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The condescending "BUT WILL YOU SUPPORT THE NOMINEE?!?" crap is 1000x worse than whatever criticisms leftists have of bad candidates, in terms of its effect on winning elections. Just stop. Let the primary play out and dont sweep [expletive] under the rug in the name of fake unity


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Election
PostPosted: March 17 19, 12:32 am 
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Don't tone police me bro!
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Pretending that a bad candidate is not a bad candidate doesnt make them not a bad candidate. You would think we would have learned this in 2016 but some people are so self righteous and incapable of reflection that apparently we havent.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Election
PostPosted: March 17 19, 12:36 am 
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This crowd tends to run a little older and I think these kinds of people who were politically involved before 2016 are still stuck in old patterns of political analysis and dont seem to understand that this [expletive] is not a game. This is not a horse race to place bets on. This tired crap that passes as political analysis but says nothing about the material lives of real world people-- its time to end it. As has been mentioned, the stakes are too high.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Election
PostPosted: March 17 19, 7:37 am 
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Schlich wrote:
Blah blah blah here we go with the shaming and dick waving just because someone called beto a sell out cry me a river jesus christ


LOL. The shaming is over the Stein voting and the Hillary bashing. The comments about idealism over pragmatism you'll learn as you get older and wiser.

Quote:
The condescending "BUT WILL YOU SUPPORT THE NOMINEE?!?" crap is 1000x worse than whatever criticisms leftists have of bad candidates, in terms of its effect on winning elections. Just stop. Let the primary play out and dont sweep [expletive] under the rug in the name of fake unity


Also LOL. Supporting the nominee is unity. Letting the left side fall because we're fractured is helping Trump win.

Quote:
This crowd tends to run a little older and I think these kinds of people who were politically involved before 2016 are still stuck in old patterns of political analysis and dont seem to understand that this [expletive] is not a game. This is not a horse race to place bets on. This tired crap that passes as political analysis but says nothing about the material lives of real world people-- its time to end it. As has been mentioned, the stakes are too high.


Again. LOL. There are kids in concentration camps on the border and the courts are slowly getting packed with right-wingers who associate with hate groups and tariffs are [expletive] up our trade and there's an openly racist president putting POC's lives at risk by emboldening violent racists both here and abroad and on and on and on and those are the real things, the real stakes. Some middle class white kid who voted for Stein because she would forgive his student loans (she wouldn't, it's an asinine impossible thing to promise) and helped put us in that position instead of a position where Clinton is President and the alt-right remains on the fringe can kindly STFU and not lecture anyone again about vote integrity.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Election
PostPosted: March 17 19, 7:58 am 
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Just to be perfectly direct. A vote for Stein last time around? A stupid, selfish, ego-driven idiotic thing to do. As bad as voting Trump. My suspicion is a lot of Stein voters figured HRC would win and that they could then, when HRC did something they didn't like, but a "Don't Blame Me I Voted For Stein" bumper sticker, because their notion that they're Ivory pure, ideals-wise, and their ego is more important that making sure Trump doesn't win by voting for someone they only like 40-70%. It's the provenance of the young, idealistic voter who lacks wisdom and sense and who'd rather fight the power, man, than do the right thing. Those are the same people who howled on Facebook that Clinton was a terrible person who cozied up to Wall St too much, which weakened her for the general during a primary that, by Super Tuesday, she already had locked up. But those with more ideals than knowledge still howled: we can still win this, we can't have Hillary!

That crowd? That crowd thinks they are entitled to a pretty high horse, when in fact they are part of the problem, even though their political stances are good. If they feature in this election and behave the same in this election we are [expletive]. They'll all cry and whine that they're not to blame, but they are.


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