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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Election
PostPosted: January 8 19, 12:31 pm 
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thrill wrote:
I think you're vastly overestimating how many leftists didn't vote for HRC on principle.


But I don't think I'm overestimating how many people on the left trashed HRC on Facebook. I recall 2015 and 2016 involving a lot of my leftist friends screaming about Wall Street and emails and Benghazi along with the nutjobs on the right. That hurts, never helps, unless your only goal is short-term pride in a well-worded Facebook rant.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Election
PostPosted: January 8 19, 12:36 pm 
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In your imagination, you’re going to prevent negative Facebook posts about possible Democratic presidential candidates with continuous lectures about which views you believe are permissible to express?


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Election
PostPosted: January 8 19, 1:25 pm 
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Arthur Dent wrote:
In your imagination, you’re going to prevent negative Facebook posts about possible Democratic presidential candidates with continuous lectures about which views you believe are permissible to express?


That's not what I'm doing. I'm not saying what views are ok to express. I'm saying it's not ok as a team--and this is a team effort and has to be--it's not ok to drag down the teammates we think are softest. You know how we are all suspicious of Jimmy Butler, with all the talent in the world, because he can't stop dragging down every team he plays for by blasting people in the media, or blasting people on his team so the media finds out about it? We need to not be Jimmy Butler. We need to be the teammate in the locker room who doesn't care for 1/3 of the players on the team but who still says in post-game pressers that it's a team effort, everybody is working hard, we have one goal of a championship, etc.

The problem here is that every micro-tribe of the Democratic Party considers other micro-tribes to be unworthy, not a good part of the party as a whole, and will put them on blast instead of shutting the [expletive] up and doing what's best for our side. That's what the GOP did and it's why they won in 2016. Tearing down Pelosi, if you're liberal, is anti-productive. It hurts what you want in the long-run.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Election
PostPosted: January 8 19, 1:32 pm 
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This seems like an argument against primarying. Dan Lipinski needs to be knocked down, for one.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Election
PostPosted: January 8 19, 1:40 pm 
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ghostrunner wrote:
This seems like an argument against primarying. Dan Lipinski needs to be knocked down, for one.


It's a call for the old days of primarying before social media and instant apoplectic hyperbolic outrage on the internet. It's a call for responsible primarying. It's a call for the days when we could tell the difference between real and false, the truth and a lie, a sane Republican and a lunatic, Aziz and Louis, and so on. A time when a small misstep was not a call for someone to lose their livelihood. A call for a time when we knew how to scale things in a sane and sober way. A call for the days when primaries were debates about policy and issues and ideas and not driven by character assassinations and 30-second television ads that were not about the policies of the ad-buyer but the personal evils of the opponent and how the opponent was awful for Americans and their families.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Election
PostPosted: January 8 19, 2:38 pm 
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33anda3rd wrote:
ghostrunner wrote:
This seems like an argument against primarying. Dan Lipinski needs to be knocked down, for one.


It's a call for the old days of primarying before social media and instant apoplectic hyperbolic outrage on the internet. It's a call for responsible primarying. It's a call for the days when we could tell the difference between real and false, the truth and a lie, a sane Republican and a lunatic, Aziz and Louis, and so on. A time when a small misstep was not a call for someone to lose their livelihood. A call for a time when we knew how to scale things in a sane and sober way. A call for the days when primaries were debates about policy and issues and ideas and not driven by character assassinations and 30-second television ads that were not about the policies of the ad-buyer but the personal evils of the opponent and how the opponent was awful for Americans and their families.

But she was a terrible candidate and the results obviously bore that out. What responsibility do she and the DNC bear? How are we supposed to take them to task and create change without dissenting?

Related: I'll always wonder about the butterfly effect around Joe Biden not running in '16. I think he easily wins the nomination and the general. This is pre-me too, which he has exposure on, and it was pre-purity politics from the left, which he is incredibly weak on now. It was aviator wearing Uncle Joe with the grin and the thumbs up. But because the DNC anointed Hillary and because there was no other establishment candidate with any credibility that could provide a safe alternative for establishment libs, Bernie was able to rise to prominence and his campaign woke up the sleeping giant of the Occupy Wall Street generation. All of us that hated the status quo, the special interests, the corporate sell outs, and insular nature of the DNC's practices had someone to latch onto for the first time in our lives. Now there's no going back, the genie has been let out of the bottle, and liberal politics have been forever changed. Hillary lost, Biden will never be president, and the democrats are now held accountable for their sins.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Election
PostPosted: January 8 19, 2:52 pm 
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33anda3rd wrote:
pioneer98 wrote:
Calls for party unity are often (if not usually) a way to quiet the voices of people who are generally worse off.


That's exactly what They want you to say, man. Be fractured, the left loses. You can't spin tag lines from a DSA meeting into winning a national election, it just doesn't work.



Pffft we have like 1 POC that comes to our DSA meetings. You know why they don't come to our meetings? Because DSA has their own race problem. This thread was started by a black woman who is trying to educate white people about these things.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Election
PostPosted: January 8 19, 3:00 pm 
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Republicans have had many times when they were not all on the same page. The Tea Party primaried a ton of Republicans because of their lack of a backbone (in their view). That was a big split! Earlier than that, there was a split between Libertarians and Republicans, when Ron Paul was running, and to this day that faction still exists. And way more people voted for Libertarian candidates than vote for Green candidates, but I don't hear Republicans screaming at them that they are costing them elections. But maybe they are having that argument. I'm not on those kind of Facebook groups or forums, so I don't know.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Election
PostPosted: January 8 19, 3:09 pm 
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One dynamic that Republicans have that Dems do not is their media apparatus (Fox, Rush, etc) all embrace candidates that move farther and farther to the right. When the tea party appeared, they loved it! Their media didn't lament that some of the old incumbents were getting booted. Whereas Democratic candidates that move farther and farther to the left get treated like weird outsiders rocking the boat. I am reminded of an article where I read about how a bunch of Dem staffers (some even that worked for Crowley's campaign) came to AOC's people after the primary and they were all pulling for her but dare not say so publicly.


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Election
PostPosted: January 8 19, 3:13 pm 
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thrill wrote:
But she was a terrible candidate and the results obviously bore that out.


She was a highly qualified candidate who had some areas of challenge, which is why she lost to a legitimately terrible candidate who was far more flawed, but better at messaging.

thrill wrote:
What responsibility do she and the DNC bear?


A good portion but not all, because it's a complex issue with a lot of moving parts.

She did not lose on policy. For middle-Americans her policies and her politics were more aligned with their needs. She lost on branding. There's an entire wing of the publishing industry that is made up of anti-Clinton books. You write one, you go on FOX to plug it, you get to call yourself a best-selling author. Obama is next. How many times have we heard from the alt-right "....because of what Obama did to our country"? And what exactly did he do besides give a lot of people healthcare, sign the Ledbetter Act, bail out our financial industry and save our economy from collapse, bail out our auto industry, kill Bin Laden, yadda yadda yadda? But "....because of what Obama did to our country" is a rallying call with the right, just like all things anti-Clinton are. "but her emails....", remember, from people who couldn't tell you how many people died in Benghazi or what it was over, or even tell you it's in Libya or point it out on a globe. That's how we get to the point of people--including a couple on this board--talking 2.5 years ago about how Clinton and Trump are just as bad so what difference does it really make who you vote for. Her brand was terrible and she and the DNC did not do a good enough job in getting the message out in the midwest or in mobilizing voters there.

So. How much did the Bernie crowd's condemnation of Hillary and her Wall Street ties add to the tarnishing of her brand, and to the public narrative that Hillary is evil and she's = Trump? That was not an alt-right creation, that Hillary is too cozy with Wall Street. Benghazi, sure, that was a GOP witch hunt of the variety that Trump now claims to be victim. But the Wall Street narrative is the creation of the progressives. We added to the narrative that Clinton was untrustworthy and softened her up for the general in a primary that was un-winnable for us. For those middle class voters in WI, IN, MO, IA, PA the progressives added to the anti-Hillary narrative by talking ad nauseum about how she's in bed with New York City Bankers.

thrill wrote:
How are we supposed to take them to task and create change without dissenting?


With policy debate, and by showing up at the polls and voting. By talking about our ideas and why they are good ones.

Remember, Bernie got his ass kicked in the primary 55-43%. That's a bigger margin than any general POTUS election since Reagan '84. We have made strides as progressives but we are entitled to NOTHING yet, until that 55-43 gets flipped around.


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