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PostPosted: February 4 19, 1:54 pm 
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thrill wrote:
G. Keenan wrote:
Venezuela has steadily descended into chaos and utter poverty through no fault of anyone but Chavez and Maduro.

This is a very inaccurate take imo. Manipulating oil prices in conjunction with the Saudis is right at the top of the CIA's playbook when it wants to squeeze Russia and Venezuela. It's not a coincidence that during the heyday of Chavez's administration and the high point of the Venezuelan economy, the US released a ton of oil from our reserve and the Saudis dropped prices causing the price to plummet. I'm sure you guys remember the weird blip in 2005-2006 when gas was in the $1.25-1.50/gallon range.



Yeah Venezuela is a disaster and their political system is a mess. It's not anything I'd want here. My point is just that we do all kinds of things to meddle with countries that are pushing something other than free market capitalism (and we even mess with some of the ones that are pushing that). This Wikipedia article talks about a lot of things we did back in the day to try to contain Chavez. But sanctions weren't part of that because we needed their oil.


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PostPosted: February 4 19, 2:10 pm 
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PostPosted: February 4 19, 2:15 pm 
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thrill wrote:
G. Keenan wrote:
Venezuela has steadily descended into chaos and utter poverty through no fault of anyone but Chavez and Maduro.

This is a very inaccurate take imo. Manipulating oil prices in conjunction with the Saudis is right at the top of the CIA's playbook when it wants to squeeze Russia and Venezuela. It's not a coincidence that during the heyday of Chavez's administration and the high point of the Venezuelan economy, the US released a ton of oil from our reserve and the Saudis dropped prices causing the price to plummet. I'm sure you guys remember the weird blip in 2005-2006 when gas was in the $1.25-1.50/gallon range.


I'm not buying it. The US has been no friend of Chavez, but Chavez on his own made a total mess of the Venezuelan oil industry and pretty much everything else. All by himself he filled the judiciary and military and oil industry with flunkies and loyalists and violently cracked down on political dissidents. He may have emerged from a disenfranchised part of society and given the poor and electoral voice and political consciousness they didn't have before, but like our very own idiot in chief he had an extremely high opinion of his own abilities and put flunkies in charge of everything important and then watched it all go down the tubes and blamed everyone but himself. Maduro is now just a bad impression.

Just because Trump's cronies are now circling like buzzards, which is not a good thing, doesn't mean that blame doesn't belong with the people who have been in charge there for the past 20 years. The same hasn't happened in Bolivia or Ecuador with leftist, anti-capitalist governments. Colombia is experiencing a prolonged turnaround. Argentina lumbers along. Chile is doing fine.

American progressives should not be looking at Venezuela as a victim of American capitalist hegemony. Chavez and Maduro were/are not good at governing.


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PostPosted: February 4 19, 2:24 pm 
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No, I'm not buying it. It's obviously both. There's no way you think the CIA hasn't meddled extensively to undermine their leftist government.


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PostPosted: February 4 19, 2:27 pm 
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thrill wrote:
No, I'm not buying it. It's obviously both. There's no way you think the CIA hasn't meddled extensively to undermine their leftist government.


No, I am the one who is not buying it.


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PostPosted: February 4 19, 2:28 pm 
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You can't sell me on the fact that I'm not buying. No one can. I wouldn't buy it.


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PostPosted: February 4 19, 2:30 pm 
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thrill wrote:
You can't sell me on the fact that I'm not buying. No one can. I wouldn't buy it.


Studies show you bought it.

And the customer survey you filled out gave your purchase 4 out of 5 stars.


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PostPosted: February 4 19, 3:14 pm 
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Seriously though, the CIA probably has been trying to undermine Venezuela's experiment. I'm just saying that Chavez made their job a lot easier through his own mistakes. Maduro is just outright terrible.

Fun fact, Simón Bolívar and George Washington were mutual admirers, but Bolivar famously stated, "The United States appear to be destined by Providence to plague America with misery in the name of liberty."

So yeah, he pretty much nailed that.


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PostPosted: February 5 19, 9:10 am 
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Trying to figure out which of you overbought so I can swoop in and take advantage of the depressed value.


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PostPosted: February 8 19, 8:00 am 
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