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 Post subject: Re: Deregulation
PostPosted: February 7 19, 11:59 am 
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Tim wrote:
33, I hear what you’re saying, but (doing my best to not sound callous) the poor person shouldn’t be in the market for a car right now.


In my experience, poor people usually end up in the market for a car when the old one conks out.


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 Post subject: Re: Deregulation
PostPosted: February 7 19, 12:02 pm 
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More regulatory theory:
Much cheaper and better for society to regulate, than wait until [expletive] spills and breaks and then clean up the mess later.

There are many examples, but here are a few. The 2008 economic mess is a big one. The fallout far exceeds regulatory costs.

Rivers and streams -pollution and spills have to be dealt with for decades. Mining operators in Ozarks are long gone, the lead and toxics the left behind still being addressed and paid for. Then there are costs that are nearly impossible to quantify - like the health of the citizens and cancer clusters erc.

Not that the regs always work, but in a more sane world, more of the major players would be on board with making regs better.

We should be looking to examples in more contained 1st world nations for what works and doesn't on regulatory area.. Like Japan or Scandinavians. Since these nations are less sprawling, results are more measurable.


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 Post subject: Re: Deregulation
PostPosted: February 7 19, 12:10 pm 
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...instead we have oil lobbyists running the EPA and interior dept. And Rick Perry - A Dancing with Stars contestant overseeing the Nukes.

All feign to be free marketeers.


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 Post subject: Re: Deregulation
PostPosted: February 7 19, 12:16 pm 
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obucard wrote:
Tim wrote:
33, I hear what you’re saying, but (doing my best to not sound callous) the poor person shouldn’t be in the market for a car right now.


In my experience, poor people usually end up in the market for a car when the old one conks out.


Given the poor transportation infrastructure in many cities, as well as zoning (certain kinds of industries at the outskirts of cities, for instance, because of pollution), cars are a necessity for some people, even when they come at a relatively high cost.


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 Post subject: Re: Deregulation
PostPosted: February 7 19, 12:19 pm 
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Tim wrote:
Freed, I’d push back a bit on your libertarian view of environmental regulations. Gary Johnson wasn’t for getting rid of the EPA. One may view pollution, industrial waste as entities that would do us harm, thus government should be used to protect us from them. An individual can’t protect themselves from climate change, thus it is incumbent upon the government to help provide a solution. An individual can protect their self from a loan shark, by not using a loan shark.

Gary Johnson? I guess since I was dealing in theory, I had that implausibility coming.
(just hsving fun with ya)


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 Post subject: Re: Deregulation
PostPosted: February 7 19, 12:34 pm 
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Freed Roger wrote:
Tim wrote:
Freed, I’d push back a bit on your libertarian view of environmental regulations. Gary Johnson wasn’t for getting rid of the EPA. One may view pollution, industrial waste as entities that would do us harm, thus government should be used to protect us from them. An individual can’t protect themselves from climate change, thus it is incumbent upon the government to help provide a solution. An individual can protect their self from a loan shark, by not using a loan shark.

Gary Johnson? I guess since I was dealing in theory, I had that implausibility coming.
(just hsving fun with ya)

Hahah well done.


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 Post subject: Re: Deregulation
PostPosted: February 7 19, 12:35 pm 
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Tim wrote:
Freed, I’d push back a bit on your libertarian view of environmental regulations. Gary Johnson wasn’t for getting rid of the EPA. One may view pollution, industrial waste as entities that would do us harm, thus government should be used to protect us from them. An individual can’t protect themselves from climate change, thus it is incumbent upon the government to help provide a solution. An individual can protect their self from a loan shark, by not using a loan shark.


I generally agree with this--that regulation often deals with issues such as the tragedy of the commons (such as overuse of a natural resource because no one person has the incentive to take care of it), externalities (imposed costs on others, such as pollution on a neighborhood), and so on. Additionally, regulation can insure the proper functioning of a market and make that market more viable--see the banking industry, or trust in the quality of food and drugs because of the FDA.

One argument that economists have often used concerning regulation is the problem of regulatory capture--that is, the power of an industry to craft legislation that benefits the industry at the expense of the consumer. (in other words, a regulation can be a wolf in sheep's clothing.) At the same time, I'm pretty sure that that's a struggle between different groups that would happen anyway at the government level.

I would add, too, that we can create many kinds of viable markets through regulation. Regulations can help or hinder economic efficiency, but exist to support other values, too. For instance, child-labor laws are technically an infringement upon the marketplace, broadly speaking, but there are many good reasons to support them.

We should also be aware of the history of regulation and its problems--for instance, the banking reforms of the 1930's created a more stable banking system and trust in that system, but also made it much more difficult for underserved communities to form community banks and trusts--hence, the reduced ability to get around problems of bank redlining and banking discrimination. One community's good regulation may greatly impoverish another for generations.

I do think power differentials need to be kept in mind. I understand loan sharks do provide a product, but I think there is exploitation beyond the service such firms render.


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 Post subject: Re: Deregulation
PostPosted: February 7 19, 12:39 pm 
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obucard wrote:
Tim wrote:
33, I hear what you’re saying, but (doing my best to not sound callous) the poor person shouldn’t be in the market for a car right now.


In my experience, poor people usually end up in the market for a car when the old one conks out.


And there's a whole downward spiral that can happen there. Can't get a new car because payments are too high or you don't qualify, so you ride the old one out hoping it doesn't break down between paychecks. If it does you go get a quick loan from one of these places, and it goes on and on like that. I used to put retreads on my car, which I knew wasn't the best idea, but it was in my budget.

Hopefully postal banking picks up some traction in the next few years.


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 Post subject: Re: Deregulation
PostPosted: February 7 19, 3:04 pm 
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In most cities, poor people need a car if they want to have a job. Public transportation sucks in most places. In my town it runs from like 5AM to 6PM, M-F. It runs shorter hours on Saturday (like 8-4 I think) and zero hours on Sunday. And even if those hours work for you, the number of buses is small, so they only come around to some places once an hour, and with few routes they are longer and so take longer to get places.

So if you work nights or weekends, which covers just about anyone who is a waiter/waitress or works in retail, you need a car. I guess you could bike (and some do) but that is extremely hard in Winter. So there are simply a ton of people in the market for old beater cars, and they do get screwed and can't afford repairs, etc. I don't know if the numbers that 33 put out there are accurate but transportation is an enormous burden on working lower class people, and is one of many hurdles they have to getting out of poverty.


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 Post subject: Re: Deregulation
PostPosted: February 7 19, 4:42 pm 
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sighyoung wrote:
obucard wrote:
Tim wrote:
33, I hear what you’re saying, but (doing my best to not sound callous) the poor person shouldn’t be in the market for a car right now.


In my experience, poor people usually end up in the market for a car when the old one conks out.


Given the poor transportation infrastructure in many cities, as well as zoning (certain kinds of industries at the outskirts of cities, for instance, because of pollution), cars are a necessity for some people, even when they come at a relatively high cost.


Right. If you're the single mother of two anywhere in California, where something like 1 in 8 Americans lives, you probably cannot afford to live close to work, and your public transpo options are virtually zero.


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