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 Post subject: Re: Where would you go?
PostPosted: August 27 19, 2:47 pm 
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I never answered this, but I think if it was solely up to me I’d say Netherlands. Seems like a nice life. Bikes, transit, canals, weed. Easy train access to the greater continent.

Of course that knowing nothing about whatever recurring problems they may have.


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 Post subject: Re: Where would you go?
PostPosted: August 27 19, 3:40 pm 
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ghostrunner wrote:
I never answered this, but I think if it was solely up to me I’d say Netherlands. Seems like a nice life. Bikes, transit, canals, weed. Easy train access to the greater continent.

Of course that knowing nothing about whatever recurring problems they may have.


Given my relatively short experience (less than a week), great beer but really boring cuisine.


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 Post subject: Re: Where would you go?
PostPosted: August 27 19, 3:43 pm 
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Popeye_Card wrote:
ghostrunner wrote:
I never answered this, but I think if it was solely up to me I’d say Netherlands. Seems like a nice life. Bikes, transit, canals, weed. Easy train access to the greater continent.

Of course that knowing nothing about whatever recurring problems they may have.


Given my relatively short experience (less than a week), great beer but really boring cuisine.


Damn it, I'm an idiot and combined Belgium and the Netherlands in my head. (Same trip.) The Netherlands doesn't even have good beers, though they have fairly good bars with many Belgian beers available.

They also have this, which is controversial.


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 Post subject: Re: Where would you go?
PostPosted: August 27 19, 4:05 pm 
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There's populist nationalism everywhere these days. Do we think that somewhere like Spain, with a national catholic church and a fairly recent history of fascism, is going to work stuff out better than the US?

I have no dog in that fight, I'm legit curious of the opinions here.


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 Post subject: Re: Where would you go?
PostPosted: August 28 19, 7:30 am 
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33anda3rd wrote:
There's populist nationalism everywhere these days. Do we think that somewhere like Spain, with a national catholic church and a fairly recent history of fascism, is going to work stuff out better than the US?

I have no dog in that fight, I'm legit curious of the opinions here.


Nowhere is fully safe, nope. Particularly as a Jew, it's not like any country I could go to is exactly free from any such history.

And there is a growing anti-immigrant sentiment in Spain, where people have always viewed North African immigrants as "not really Spanish" and they did have that whole inquisition thing and as you mention, more recently Franco plunged the country into fascism which has depressed the whole country's economic prospects ever since.

In conclusion, YAY WORLD OF 2019


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 Post subject: Re: Where would you go?
PostPosted: August 28 19, 7:57 am 
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heyzeus wrote:
Nowhere is fully safe, nope. Particularly as a Jew, it's not like any country I could go to is exactly free from any such history.

...

In conclusion, YAY WORLD OF 2019


Right, there are like 16-18 countries in Europe, ranging from Cyprus to Sweden, where 4-50% of the electorate is now on some kind of populism/nationalism. Even famously chill Switzerland has that Peoples Party or whatever that's like a quarter or a third of the nation now.

The countries that are free from that would be Portugal, Belgium, Luxembourg. The cons there would be:
1. I don't speak Luxembourgese
2. Those are some small countries bound to a union with all the rest of them
3. There's probably a reason they don't have nationalism: migrants don't want to go there to make the nationalism thing rise. They're not desirable places to live. Yeah, even Portugal. Economy is booming, but the EU bailed them out less than a decade ago and they just might be an express train headed into an economic crash.


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 Post subject: Re: Where would you go?
PostPosted: August 28 19, 10:03 am 
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Unlike here, European countries really do have a history and national identity that is much more informed by ethnicity and religion. Until recently, they have not experienced the kind of mass immigration that has always been part of US history. Their national identities are not based on loyalty to an idea like in the US, though perhaps you could make a case that France is bit like us in that regard because of the Revolution. European identity is more defined by cultural commonalities in language, art, history, and food. As a result, their populations are much more inclined towards exclusionary nationalism than we are. Let's remember that Trump's anti-immigrant agenda is broadly unpopular here. He his able to carry out these barbarities not because the US population strongly supports them, but because the Presidency has accumulated way too much power.

My point is that a move to Europe to avoid religious or ethnic persecution is probably not an upgrade, especially to Germany or to a country that retains a strong Catholic identity. Your best bet for a European country committed to genuine multiculturalism as a positive in of itself and not something just to be tolerated is the UK, who are obviously in their own [expletive] show right now.

But, if your goal is to massively upgrade your quality of life, Europe all the way baby and Italy, Spain, Portugal would all do fine. Better work/life balance. Better infrastructure. Better food. Better schools. Better healthcare. Gun violence virtually non-existent.


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 Post subject: Re: Where would you go?
PostPosted: August 28 19, 10:10 am 
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Buddy of mine lived in Spain, said the perception of quality of life is different when you live there than visit. Yeah, they don't work a ton. But as a result people live with their parents until they're like 30, even after marriage. That always tempered my enthusiasm.

If we're talking about the US being formed on an idea, that's a great reason not to be in the US. That idea is freedom. Freedom to be what you want, to do what you want, to act how you want. It's like Twitter--sounds good in principle but after time the cracks are exposed. We're a country founded by Puritans--actually a subset of Puritans--who first went to Holland to get away from the state church and then came here when Holland wasn't to their liking. The idea that they could believe what they wanted and form their own little utopia suited them. But we're now a country crumbling under the weight of anything-goes belief systems where it's kind of like ok, how do we top Pizzagate? Who will be the more extreme version of Qaon? Seth Abramson? How much further down can we stifle any sort of truth or rational thought in the name of freedom to believe whatever suits you? In that regard, literally every other country is a more appealing option. Also those countries have shown the ability to rebound from fascism in the past, the US has yet to demonstrate that we can come back and we're very young as far as nations go.


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 Post subject: Re: Where would you go?
PostPosted: August 28 19, 11:13 am 
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33anda3rd wrote:
Buddy of mine lived in Spain, said the perception of quality of life is different when you live there than visit. Yeah, they don't work a ton. But as a result people live with their parents until they're like 30, even after marriage. That always tempered my enthusiasm.

If we're talking about the US being formed on an idea, that's a great reason not to be in the US. That idea is freedom. Freedom to be what you want, to do what you want, to act how you want. It's like Twitter--sounds good in principle but after time the cracks are exposed. We're a country founded by Puritans--actually a subset of Puritans--who first went to Holland to get away from the state church and then came here when Holland wasn't to their liking. The idea that they could believe what they wanted and form their own little utopia suited them. But we're now a country crumbling under the weight of anything-goes belief systems where it's kind of like ok, how do we top Pizzagate? Who will be the more extreme version of Qaon? Seth Abramson? How much further down can we stifle any sort of truth or rational thought in the name of freedom to believe whatever suits you? In that regard, literally every other country is a more appealing option. Also those countries have shown the ability to rebound from fascism in the past, the US has yet to demonstrate that we can come back and we're very young as far as nations go.


We're actually the oldest democracy in the world and older, as a nation, than most in Europe or anywhere else. All of these European countries we are talking about have the same regional divisions as we do -- north vs. south, city vs. country, etc. Spain has a legit secession movement to contend with in Catalonia. Scotland may well leave the UK after Brexit. Italy might be the next to exit the EU if Salvini keeps gaining power. They grapple with perennially high unemployment and youth unemployment in particular is way high. What they have going for them though that we do not is that the debate over the fundamental role of government in society is settled there. It is universally agreed across the political spectrum that universal healthcare and affordable access to higher education are a collective responsibility. There is a prevailing cultural sentiment that life is defined by more than just work.

The whole living with your parents until age 35 is common to all Catholic countries across the world and to many other cultures/religions as well. We are the outliers in that regard, and are seeing that change here as the high cost of housing and education are forcing young people to live with their parents longer or move back home to save up for a down payment or pay off student loans. It's normal there and doesn't make you look like a loser. The cost of going out and eating and drinking are much lower there than in any decent size US city. And when you get sick of your parents in Spain you can fly to Berlin or London or Rome for $40 to use some of that 6 weeks paid vacation they get.

American ex-pats like Zeus or Rad are in a pretty good position if they can sell property in the US and use that chunk to get established in Europe. Even better if you can work remotely for a US company while living there, though maybe your taxes would be a pain. Teaching English is not going to pay much and unless you genuinely enjoy doing that will probably get old fast. Teaching requires you to be "on" all the time and you'll burn out if your heart isn't in it or if you're not just a young person doing it to make travel money.


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 Post subject: Re: Where would you go?
PostPosted: August 28 19, 12:34 pm 
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Just read this the other day about adults living with their parents. 37% of those 18-34 in California.

https://calmatters.org/housing/2019/08/ ... als-ddata/


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