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PostPosted: June 29 19, 4:38 pm 
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From the Biden thread:

33anda3rd wrote:
IronPenguin wrote:
This is a really disingenuous argument...


That's all really nice, welcome to the board. I was a Bernie donor--the max allowed by law--in 2016, and I phone banked for him, and now I'm over him because it's not Bernie v Clinton only and there are better candidates who don't come across as a cranky northeastern complaining grandfather. I prefer more the more sober candidates. I kinda LOL when I imagine Sanders in a cabinet meeting, told by some Joint Chiefs guy that Bernie can't do exactly what he wants in some remote part of the world because of the balance of international security, and Bernie then yelling at the guy that it shouldn't be that way. I kinda LOL when I think of Bernie going to do the State of the Union--is it maybe Trump-ish in that, after a couple years in office without much change, Sanders stands in front of Congress yelling and complaining and pointing fingers? What can we point to in life, beyond his movement/fame, in which we can say "Bernie Sanders led that group toward tangible results that produced change?" I think that's a question a lot of people need to ask themselves who are still Team Sanders: how do you see him leading not a movement based in repeated soundbites of complaint, but our federal government? How do you see him managing the EU and the UK during Brexit? How do you see him dealing with North Korea? With Iran? Let's be real: he's as hard-line as Trump, shows very little flexibility, is very dismissive of non-Sanders ideas.

While you're on your soapbox about the masses of people it takes to form a movement to change the world, describe how that led to Lincoln, the first or second Roosevelt, or LBJ, highly popular (the latter three at least) Presidents who used big govt. for good.


I actually agree that it's entirely possible, even likely, that Bernie won't accomplish much of what he wants to. But I think the difference is he will be calling out the reasons as it happens and keeping people's attention on the systemic resistance. As for him being hard line, what's that opposed to? Because Democrats just voted to fund ICE without ensuring that conditions within the concentration camps improve. Compromise in and of itself isn't a virtue. It will also depend on how Democrats work with him. If he wins the primary, beats Trump, and then Democrats don't support his agenda, is that his fault or theirs? He's pretty consistently been on the right side of issues, but he's also one person. You might find this interesting:


At 8:10 he gets asked about his list of accomplishments and points to things like how he sponsored a bill to end America's involvement in Yemen. It passed the House and Senate, but Trump vetoed it. He's supported the Iran deal. I do worry sometimes about foreign policy, but he's also willing to point out how US imperialism has made things worse for other countries. But your example about being told things can't be a certain way points to a significant difference between the left and liberals. Liberals tend to support the status quo and accept things are the way they are for practical reasons, while people on the left reject the idea that it needs to be this way at all.

The last part confuses me, because I'm not against a bigger government. I just don't think that anything will change in a significant way until there is a mass movement that puts pressure on the Nancy Pelosis of the world to actually support more left-wing policies. You can already see the effects with AOC and the other freshmen representatives who were inspired partly by Bernie, and the establishment resistance to those ideas.

As for Lincoln, the Roosevelts, and LBJ, that sounds an awful lot like the great man theory. But Lincoln literally said he'd keep slavery if it preserved the Union. He did a great job as a leader, but it was decades of work by abolitionists that built opposition to slavery in the north. From there, it took an incredibly bloody war to end slavery in the south. Lincoln absolutely benefited from their work and it set the stage for him. Imagine if all that work hadn't been done, if John Brown and others like him hadn't escalated tensions and Lincoln was able to preserve the union without ending slavery? Would we look as kindly on him as we do now?

Organized labor and consumer movements were big in setting the stage for antitrust legislation, socialism becoming popular during the Great Depression helped scare capitalists enough to support the New Deal. And with regards to LBJ, I assume you include the Civil Rights Act in his accomplishments? Because that was decades of activists that forced the issue. Without pressure from the public, none of those changes would happen. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, because it sounds like you think these leaders helped create movements and not that they were enabled by those movements.


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PostPosted: June 29 19, 4:45 pm 
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A leader is not the person pointing out what is wrong. A leader is the person fixing it. Bernie is not a fixer, he's a pointer-outer. So he's great as a movement mouthpiece who is fiercely speaking truth to what's wrong. But he's not the person to sit in the oval office and lead our nation.


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PostPosted: June 29 19, 4:59 pm 
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33anda3rd wrote:
A leader is not the person pointing out what is wrong. A leader is the person fixing it. Bernie is not a fixer, he's a pointer-outer. So he's great as a movement mouthpiece who is fiercely speaking truth to what's wrong. But he's not the person to sit in the oval office and lead our nation.


Your mind is made up.


Side note: Erik Loomis is a great follow on Twitter if you’re interested in labor history and the labor movement. Labor history is US history.


I’m sure he writes books i should read.


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PostPosted: June 29 19, 10:31 pm 
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My mind is mostly made up but can be changed, as I've gone from Sanders to decidedly not Sanders in < 3 years.

For those whose mind hasn't been made up, or is leaning Bernie I'd ask: What is the example of Sanders taking leadership on something and guiding his chamber and the others to passing it? He's been in position 30 years, and he's been there when there has been a Dem POTUS, House and Senate. He's had opportunity. That's not an excuse. Show me some Sanders leadership, I'm open minded enough to listen.


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PostPosted: June 29 19, 10:44 pm 
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Don't tone police me bro!
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Apparently not since one was already posted in this thread


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PostPosted: June 29 19, 10:51 pm 
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Schlich wrote:
Apparently not since one was already posted in this thread


Sorry I don't read real good. Could you post a quote for me in this thread where there's an example of Sanders leading a major initiative that was passed into law in his 30-some years in DC?


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PostPosted: July 1 19, 6:58 am 
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Lincoln, FDR and LBJ did not change the world alone. People like John Brown and abolishonists forced the US into the civil war. Lincoln did not want to go to war initially. MLK's movement forced LBJ to pass civil rights laws. FDR famously would tell activists "I agree with you, I want to do it, now go make me do it."

Bernie is the only person that seems to grasp the role movements play in these things.


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PostPosted: July 1 19, 6:59 am 
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(I too have kind of moved on from Bernie, but that doesn't mean I moved on to any of these other candidates. I am ready for AOC's generation to take over)


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