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 Post subject: Re: Bernie
PostPosted: July 17 19, 6:48 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Bernie
PostPosted: July 17 19, 7:39 am 
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33anda3rd wrote:
Big Amoco Sign wrote:
33anda3rd wrote:
Big Amoco Sign wrote:
Bernie has always been right


Except on guns.

And states rights.

And singing shirtless and drunk in the USSR with some old-school USSR communists.

And some other stuff you don't want to cop to because he's your boy.

I agree with him on all those things. Which communists are you talking? Shirtless and drunk is a crime now? Sounds cool to me.

What did the USSR do that USA hasn't done also but worse?


Shirtless and drunk won't play too well on Trump ads in the scenario in which your can't-lose gut gets the nom.

And siding with Cold War Era USSR communists is a bad look, full stop.

Yeah they thought the same about Bill Ayers with Obama too. The people you’re referring to weren’t even bad.

Bernie saying he wanted to take strengths of both systems is not a big deal. Trump wasn’t affected by Putin praise.

Grasping at straws now dude.


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 Post subject: Re: Bernie
PostPosted: July 17 19, 8:04 am 
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33anda3rd wrote:
Big Amoco Sign wrote:
Bernie has always been right


Except on guns.

And states rights.

And singing shirtless and drunk in the USSR with some old-school USSR communists.

And some other stuff you don't want to cop to because he's your boy.

And for most of her life, Elizabeth Warren was a republican. You're making a lot of weak, incoherent points here.

I know it's hard for people like you who were as recently as 4 years ago legitimately protecting what was at the time, the democratic party's left flank, to contend with how quickly the window has shifted and now finds you firmly in the center. You liked being "progressive." You don't want to concede that title to the many, many people to the left of you now. It's just reality.

You can hold onto that center with all you've got and things will have to get worse before the new left actually has the horsepower to take control of the democratic party, but that's the thing. [expletive] is guaranteed to get worse and that is guaranteed to further polarize our country's politics further away from the center on both sides, so you lose either way. You don't have to vote Bernie, god knows he isn't perfect, but a chiller attitude towards people genuinely scared for their future who are trying to do something about it, and a more insightful understanding of what's at stake beyond politics as team sports will serve you well if you don't want to end up like the aging lib boomers who are responsible for our current predicament (an empowered GOP who has packed the courts and paved the way for a judicial legislative rigging that will probably require serious conflict and a real movement of the people to reverse in ways that are potentially very dangerous for society) because they have only ever offered a slightly kinder alternative to modern american conservatism rather than building the necessary levers of power to combat existential threats like climate change, the refugee crisis, healthcare, opioids, me too, racism and on and on. The only way we survive as a democracy is not by reaching the middle, or the college educated moderate who is turned off by Trump's gauche personality more than his actual policies/party. It's by showing the massive majority of non-voters who have given up on politics as a way to better their lives that there's an actual, real alternative. People like you are fighting a war against Donald Trump. People like me are trying to fight for the future. You don't have to agree with our methods to be more respectful and open minded. Don't back yourself too far into your centrist corner, because you might too stubborn to come out of it.

I think this is the last time I respond to one of your anti-leftist posts until after the primary because I actually do like reading your posts that aren't about the divide in the democratic party and I don't need to get all ticked off at you. It doesn't really matter all that much, I just wish people like you were as understanding of the left and people like me as you probably wish the establishment/center of the democratic party was of you 20 years ago. Real [expletive] is at stake here, and you know that. Now might not be the time. Bernie might not be the guy. That's not really the point. The point is that eventually, the democrats need to learn how to wield power as effectively, if not more effectively than the republicans if we're going to avoid sleepwalking into the apocalypse and business as usual isn't going to get that done.


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 Post subject: Re: Bernie
PostPosted: July 17 19, 8:26 am 
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Thrill, my objection is to hyperbole like "Bernie Sanders is always on the right side of history." He is not, and that statement is false, and it's kind of hero worship.

I agree with everything you're saying. I really do. My viewpoint is not the divide--a progressive who's grounded in reality and understands that there's not going to be a wave of neo-Democratic Socialism that washes over the land in one election cycle, or even two. We have FOUR seats in the House. No sense acting like we have 200. We had a candidate do so-so in the last primary, no sense acting like that message is the only one.

I'm on your side. I really am. But I know that the only way in 2020 is to get Trump out by any means necessary, and if the country as a whole isn't ready for widespread DSA policies then we have to accept that and play a long game.

My views are progressive--there are no issues I don't agree with you, BAS, ghost, Bernie on. We differ on if that can win, now, and how the party must act and how we must vote. Really, the country is drowning right now, and needs a life preserver. After we get the life preserver, in a campaign in which we push further left, we can keep pushing left. It's a long game.

And, seriously, shirtless and drunk in the USSR forty years ago is how you become a loser in a national election. Trump would run that TV ad until every suburban moderate who might vote Democrat is convinced that Bernie is cozier with Russia than Trump is. Bernie can't campaign one word against Trump on Russia without that video going all over Twitter and the alt-right slamming him over it.


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 Post subject: Re: Bernie
PostPosted: July 17 19, 9:24 am 
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The USSR thing is no big deal and just makes Bernie cooler. That [expletive] totally jives with young voters who are straying further and further left. Hillary ran footage of Trump acting like a rapist and it didn't even make a dent.

Populist candidates win elections. It's always the case. In times of early industry war/depression it might not have been the case (like Johnson) but since then it has.

Bernie is the only populist candidate the left can throw up there until he isn't. I believe AOC or someone of that nature has a chance in the future. And her marketability is really high but Pelosi is godawful and doesn't realize that. Democrats could weaponize AOC and easily win this thing by being in her corner. Using her to support a candidate would wrap this thing up.

But Democrats aren't left leaning. They are neoliberal centrists who love war and capitalism. They suck. Need a true left party.


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 Post subject: Re: Bernie
PostPosted: July 17 19, 9:50 am 
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Big Amoco Sign wrote:
Need a true left party.


Sign me up.

But. 2020 is very much a year for continuing to get the message out, through Sanders, Warren, Inslee, everyone who is passionate about one or more vital issues, and then supporting whoever the candidate is. Remember, much as I'm asking that you grit your teeth and vote for Biden or Harris if that's the nominee, the Sanders campaign will need to ask that a LOT of Obama/Pelosi centrist Democrats get out and vote for Sanders if he is the nominee. There is a modicum of unity that is required for any progress. If there is no unity, then we end up with four more years of Trump.

As a general set of follow-up self-examination types of questions:
1. Do you want centrist Dems to vote Sanders if he's the nom?
2. Do you expect centrist Dems to vote Sanders if he's the nom?
3. Will you blame centrist Dems if they fail to turnout for Sanders if he's the nom and loses to Trump?
4. Will you blame Sanders if he's the nom and does not turn out centrist Dems and loses to Trump?
5. If centrist Dems do not turn out for Nominee Sanders and Trump wins, what does that say about your assumptions of Sanders' electability and inevitability of his messaging?

The USSR Bernie stuff might be cool. But it's a political loser in a country where only about 15% of us are truly leftists/progressives.


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 Post subject: Re: Bernie
PostPosted: July 17 19, 10:27 am 
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I don't want to play the two party game anymore.

I'm a DSA member. They aren't totally aligned with my more Marxist beliefs but I believe it's a huge step the right direction.

If Democrats screw Sanders over again (and they definitely did last time with Superdelegates, timing, and momentum...this is proven), then I will just vote my beliefs or not vote at all. I don't think democracy is all that great. I'm okay with not voting and participating in a system that promotes war and an instrument for the ruling class. I don't care to elect corporate puppets which is just about what every single politician outside of the "squad" is at this point. I don't buy political theater nonsense on a macro level. Bernie's key words in his speeches are saying "we" and not "I" when he talks about leading a movement. I would participate in the democracy game for that kind of direction for the country--one that leads to a labor class movement. If it's Warren or some stooge that will just be Hillary redux, then count me out.

I will attend DSA and local anarchist/Marxist meetups and go to food drives and punk shows and volunteer to help the homeless and fight for rent control in Seattle because that gets me more than acting like our archaic feudalistic system is doing a damn thing to help the world.


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 Post subject: Re: Bernie
PostPosted: July 17 19, 10:52 am 
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Big Amoco Sign wrote:
I don't want to play the two party game anymore.

I'm a DSA member.


I'm a DSA member also, and I occasionally stand at the tent at the neighborhood farmers market and sign people up and talk about labor issues. We're more or less aligned, until you get to the anarchy, at which point we're not as aligned.

I'd rather not play the two-party system, but it's the only vehicle we have, politically. That's awesome that you are involved locally and do what you can in your community. If more people did those things everywhere, we would not have to have these conversations and debates. We would not have to vote for a candidate who doesn't align with our beliefs in order to save the world from the fascist nazi. But we're not there, and the only hope we have w/r/t national politics and preserving rights for women and immigrants, and gaining some kind of common sense reform on assault weapons, and getting a little more tax money out of the wealthy, and saving the world from the fascist nazi, all goes through the two-party system. And so if we want to exact political change, we have to go through that system.

That system is stacked against us, but it's not just party elites, it's also raw numbers. There are more centrists in Minnesota than there are DSA members in the entire country, which is still in five figures. There are more centrists in Pennsylvania than there are DSA members in the US times about 20. The good news is that issues in my lifetime--and I'm only 45--have gone from being perceived as highly liberal/leftist/progressive--gay marriage, trans rights, legal weed, nationalized healthcare programming, distrust of law enforcement based on racially-motivated violence, and more--to being centrist issues that most Americans have a view on now that was considered radial/leftist in 1990. The good news is that even as we have blips of white nationalism and racism like this, the world does tend to grow more progressive on attitudes and issues. Name one social issue that Americans have a more conservative POV on today than they had in 1950, 1975, 2000. Tough to do, right?

So by doing those things in our communities, we lead by example. Americans don't widely have better attitudes about LGBTQ people today because someone legislated it into them, they have those attitudes because of what they saw in their communities on a daily basis, and attitudes changed. Old people with old attitudes died, new generations were more progressive. That's not going to stop. I disagree with the notion that the Dems keep getting more conservative--compared to her husband's some 24 years prior, Hillary ran on a liberal platform. Objectively speaking and without comparison to another, her platform was liberal in nature. Obama was more liberal than Bill Clinton. We need a firm tug to the left, and if we can't get all the way to the left then we owe it to our country to act in service to them and vote against Trump. That's, as far as I know, the only time in history we can make that statement, where basically the future of our country is hyper-dependent on getting the incumbent out. We've never had one like this before and he's got to go, and it's an act of patriotic sacrifice to go to the polls in November and vote for whoever has the D next to their name, even if we can't stand them. No matter what we do in the micro level in our home cities, four more years of Trump and Trump judges and Trump cabinet buffoons can more than equalize even our very best micro-level works. All those people at the micro-level with better attitudes now, have to vote those better attitudes for the betterment of the federal government so we at least have an executive branch and a congress that is more in line with what Americans really believe.


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 Post subject: Re: Bernie
PostPosted: August 9 19, 3:59 pm 
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Sanders's interview with Joe Rogan is very good.

Another reason he's a good candidate is that he's expanding his audience in ways the other candidates are totally clueless on.



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 Post subject: Re: Bernie
PostPosted: August 9 19, 4:10 pm 
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Big Amoco Sign wrote:
Another reason he's a good candidate is that he's expanding his audience in ways the other candidates are totally clueless on.


No wonder he's out to such a huge lead in the polls.


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