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PostPosted: May 21 19, 9:03 am 
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Famous Mortimer wrote:
Why cut from that to two weeks later? Wouldn't Grey Worm have just killed him outright, given he wasn't wild about taking prisoners like two minutes previously?


I've only seen the first 6 eps and the last three, so I probably missed something due to backstory, but this is what I too don't understand. That dude was like "they all have to die" and was cutting throats of rando soldiers, then Jon goes into holding for a month or so for killing the queen. How did they discover that Jon killed her? Does he turn himself in? Does the unsullied guy come upon him and go "ok, off to jail"? It seems kind of implausible that upon finding out Jon killed Dany that the Unsullied dude wouldn't just ice him.


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PostPosted: May 21 19, 9:16 am 
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G. Keenan wrote:
If the show did indeed end how Martin has intended for the books to end, perhaps he will do a better job laying track for Dany's descent into madness and tyranny. This is the same person who locked her dragons in a dungeon for, what, like a year? Maybe longer? Just because they had eaten a little shepherd child. And then she starts killing innocents because . . . why exactly?

They wrote a nice monologue for Tyrion to help sell that narrative choice but I'm still not buying it.

I'm not buying any of it either and think that the entire season 8 story was atrocious as a whole. Garbage.

But, after episode 5 when they turned dany into the mad queen, there really wasn't a passable ending they could show in only 80 minutes. So, they did what they did throughout the entirety of seasons 7 and 8 and just kind of shortcutted the story to make it end.

I find their lack of respect for the characters they built to be incredibly frustrating. Hints of dany going ballistic? Sure. There were some breadcrumbs. But she went from the main or one of the main protagonists to the antagonists in the span of 40 minutes of screen time. Won the battle for kings landing legitimately, then killed half a million innocent people, then became Hitler.

Uh, come on. Think about it.
S8e3, rode her dragon to defeat the army of the dead, taking on the NK with drogon knowing full well the risk.
S8e4, toasts Arya, legitimizes Gendry, wants to attack Cersei
S8e5, roasts varys and half a mil civilians
S8e6, portrayed as hitler

Thats a fast ass heel turn.

Speaking of lack of character building, wtf is going on with bran. So, I guess he is a puppet master and knew this would all play out such that he would become king? Let half a million people die so Dany could turn villain and be killed so he could be the ruler? If he didn't know, why did he go all that way to Kings Landing? If he did know, how is he not just as bad as Dany?

I kind of feel like we were severely underinformed on what was going on in his head.


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PostPosted: May 21 19, 9:23 am 
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33anda3rd wrote:
Famous Mortimer wrote:
Why cut from that to two weeks later? Wouldn't Grey Worm have just killed him outright, given he wasn't wild about taking prisoners like two minutes previously?


I've only seen the first 6 eps and the last three, so I probably missed something due to backstory, but this is what I too don't understand. That dude was like "they all have to die" and was cutting throats of rando soldiers, then Jon goes into holding for a month or so for killing the queen. How did they discover that Jon killed her? Does he turn himself in? Does the unsullied guy come upon him and go "ok, off to jail"? It seems kind of implausible that upon finding out Jon killed Dany that the Unsullied dude wouldn't just ice him.

Unfortunately, this is one of the smaller nuances that doesn't add up so I'm guessing most people just kind of gloss over it. But, yes, that is exactly correct. You'd expect the unsullied or dothraki or whoever was guarding dany to kill jon immediately. Also, something that is not talked about, why was dany alone? Obviously there were still Lannister soldiers wondering about as Greyworm was out killing them. She had drogon, sure, but I kind of doubt drogon went through the red keep to clear it.

None of this really matters in the grand scheme of things because the show became such a [expletive] show over the last two seasons that things didn't have to make sense. They just had to end it so they could all do other things with their lives besides make GOT anymore.


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PostPosted: May 21 19, 9:36 am 
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Letdown of the century.


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PostPosted: May 21 19, 9:48 am 
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I'm not going to say they sold it, but for every altruistic thing Dany did, she did some pretty awful stuff to people, not all of whom were evil. Every time she's had to put someone to death it's been death after some kind of torture. Burning alive is pretty nasty - that's as much as a few minutes of agony before death. Crucifying the masters - they mostly have it coming, but it's inarguably torturing someone to death. She burned an innocent man in Mereen for Jorah's death to make him an example to others. Buried Xaro and Doreah alive, which is probably the worst. That's anywhere from 1 day to a week of either suffocation or starvation, and who knows what people will do to each other in that situation. A leader trying to inspire goodness in people should maybe think about the effects of those decisions a bit more. In most of those situations she was counseled to be merciful and chose the crueler option. You can say it's to send a message, but that doesn't apply in all those cases. I think she clearly was portrayed as getting off on her power to do and threaten those kinds of actions. She rules by fear and love both.

She's many times threatened to burn cities to the ground - Qarth directly, and the Slavers Bay cities when speaking to Tyrion. That means basically what she did to Kings Landing. And she had to be repeatedly advised not to raze the city before she did it. I don't think you can argue the tyrannical aspects haven't been there.

Recently, she's lost Jorah, Missandei, her ships and half of her troops. I think that's all meant to have pushed her, along with Jon spurning her.

I think it also showed in how she treated Sansa's objections - that seemed to me like more than just disagreement.

I don't think they sold it in the moment, but I see why they might have thought they did on paper. The main problem is we never clearly saw how each of these things affected her and how they pushed her to what she did. They didn't give her time to develop that twist in her character. I do think Emilia Clarke delivered on everything she was asked to do this season, she just wasn't given enough.


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PostPosted: May 21 19, 10:07 am 
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AWvsCBsteeeerike3 wrote:
33anda3rd wrote:
Famous Mortimer wrote:
Why cut from that to two weeks later? Wouldn't Grey Worm have just killed him outright, given he wasn't wild about taking prisoners like two minutes previously?


I've only seen the first 6 eps and the last three, so I probably missed something due to backstory, but this is what I too don't understand. That dude was like "they all have to die" and was cutting throats of rando soldiers, then Jon goes into holding for a month or so for killing the queen. How did they discover that Jon killed her? Does he turn himself in? Does the unsullied guy come upon him and go "ok, off to jail"? It seems kind of implausible that upon finding out Jon killed Dany that the Unsullied dude wouldn't just ice him.

Unfortunately, this is one of the smaller nuances that doesn't add up so I'm guessing most people just kind of gloss over it. But, yes, that is exactly correct. You'd expect the unsullied or dothraki or whoever was guarding dany to kill jon immediately. Also, something that is not talked about, why was dany alone? Obviously there were still Lannister soldiers wondering about as Greyworm was out killing them. She had drogon, sure, but I kind of doubt drogon went through the red keep to clear it.

None of this really matters in the grand scheme of things because the show became such a [expletive] show over the last two seasons that things didn't have to make sense. They just had to end it so they could all do other things with their lives besides make GOT anymore.


I wonder all that too but I also wonder how they discovered that she's dead. The sad dragon took his mom away--probably the most empathetic moment of the finale for me, since I don't know enough about the backstory between Dinklage/the guy under all the rocks with the gold hand--so how was the discovery made? I feel like this is a real lost opportunity in the narrative. Again, didn't watch the bulk, I'm mostly watching the last few like a guy who heard about this show across a bar conversation that lasted 8 years and then was like ok I'll read the last chapter. Seems like having Jon walk up to unsullied commander dude and being like hey look sorry I killed her because....that might have been a decent bit of narrative. Or if the unsullied leader came up just after Jon iced Dany and went to kill Jon but the dragon maybe stopped the unsullied guy because he knew his mom was an icy dictator that made him commit genocide. I dunno. Just seemed like they got a man on 3rd with nobody out in the bottom of the 9th there and couldn't drive him in.


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PostPosted: May 21 19, 10:08 am 
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Pretty nice comments from GRRM:

Spoiler: show
AN ENDING

MAY 20, 2019

The last night, the last show. After eight epic seasons, HBO’s GAME OF THRONES series has come to an end.

It is hard to believe it is over, if truth be told. The years have gone past in the blink of an eye. Can it really have been more than a decade since my manager Vince Gerardis set up a meeting at the Palm in LA, and I sat down for the first time with David Benioff and D.B. Weiss for a lunch that lasted well past dinner? I asked them if they knew who Jon Snow’s mother was. Fortunately, they did.

That was how it started. It ended last night.

I had no clue, that afternoon at the Palm, that I was about to embark on a journey that would change my life. I had optioned books and stories for television and film before. Some had even been made There was no way to know that this one was going to be different, that this pilot would not only be shot, but would go on to become the most successful show in the history of HBO, win a record number of Emmy Awards, become the most popular (and most pirated) show in the world, and transform a group of talented but largely unknown actors into major celebrities and stars. Even less did I imagine that Iwould somehow become a celebrity as well… and if truth be told, I’m still not sure how that happened.

It has been a wild ride, to say the least.

I want to thank people, but there are so many. There were forty-two cast members at the season eight premiere in New York City, and that wasn’t even all of them. And the crew, though less visible than the cast, were no less important. We had some amazing people working on this show, as all those Emmys bear witness. David & Dan assembled a championship team. The directors were incredible as well. I should start naming names, but then I’d miss someone, there were so many. But I do need to mention David Benioff, Dan Weiss, Bryan Cogman (the third head of the dragon, as I said in the recent VANITY FAIR piece about him), and of course the great team at HBO, headed by Richard Plepler. Any other network, and GAME OF THRONES would not have been what it became. Most other networks, this series never gets made at all.

I could go on and on… and have, as I’ve been writing this post in my head… but there’s really too much to say. Parting is such sweet sorrow, the Bard wrote. In the weeks and months to come, I may post about some of my favorite moments from the making of this show… now and again, when I am feeling nostalgic… but just now, there are so many memories, and no time to do them all justice.

Let me say this much — last night was an ending, but it was also a beginning. Nobody is retiring any time soon. David and Dan are going on to STAR WARS and other projects beyond that. Amazon scooped up Bryan Cogman, and put him to work on developing shows of his own, as well as helping out on their big Tolkien project. Our brilliant cast has scattered to the four winds, but you’ll be seeing a lot of them in the years to come, in all manner of television shows and movies. Our directors are keeping busy as well. I suspect that you have not seen the last of Westeros on your television sets either, but I guess that all depends on how some of these successor shows turn out.

And me? I’m still here, and I’m still busy. As a producer, I’ve got five shows in development at HBO (some having nothing whatsoever to do with the world of Westeros), two at Hulu, one on the History Channel. I’m involved with a number of feature projects, some based upon my own stories and books, some on material created by others. There are these short films I am hoping to make, adaptations of classic stories by one of the most brilliant, quirky, and original writers our genre has ever produced. I’ve consulted on a video game out of Japan. And then there’s Meow Wolf…

And I’m writing. Winter is coming, I told you, long ago… and so it is. THE WINDS OF WINTER is very late, I know, I know, but it will be done. I won’t say when, I’ve tried that before, only to burn you all and jinx myself… but I will finish it, and then will come A DREAM OF SPRING.

How will it all end? I hear people asking. The same ending as the show? Different?

Well… yes. And no. And yes. And no. And yes. And no. And yes.

I am working in a very different medium than David and Dan, never forget. They had eight hours for this final season. I expect these last two books of mine will fill 3000 manuscript pages between them before I’m done… and if more pages and chapters and scenes are needed, I’ll add them. And of course the butterfly effect will be at work as well; those of you who follow this Not A Blog will know that I’ve been talking about that since season one. There are characters who never made it onto the screen at all, and others who died in the show but still live in the books… so if nothing else, the readers will learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, Penny and her pig, Skahaz Shavepate, Arianne Martell, Darkstar, Victarion Greyjoy, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Aegon VI, and a myriad of other characters both great and small that viewers of the show never had the chance to meet. And yes, there will be unicorns… of a sort…

Book or show, which will be the “real” ending? It’s a silly question. How many children did Scarlett O’Hara have?

How about this? I’ll write it. You read it. Then everyone can make up their own mind, and argue about it on the internet.


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PostPosted: May 21 19, 10:18 am 
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ghostrunner wrote:
I'm not going to say they sold it, but for every altruistic thing Dany did, she did some pretty awful stuff to people, not all of whom were evil. Every time she's had to put someone to death it's been death after some kind of torture. Burning alive is pretty nasty - that's as much as a few minutes of agony before death. Crucifying the masters - they mostly have it coming, but it's inarguably torturing someone to death. She burned an innocent man in Mereen for Jorah's death to make him an example to others. Buried Xaro and Doreah alive, which is probably the worst. That's anywhere from 1 day to a week of either suffocation or starvation, and who knows what people will do to each other in that situation. A leader trying to inspire goodness in people should maybe think about the effects of those decisions a bit more. In most of those situations she was counseled to be merciful and chose the crueler option. You can say it's to send a message, but that doesn't apply in all those cases. I think she clearly was portrayed as getting off on her power to do and threaten those kinds of actions. She rules by fear and love both.

She's many times threatened to burn cities to the ground - Qarth directly, and the Slavers Bay cities when speaking to Tyrion. That means basically what she did to Kings Landing. And she had to be repeatedly advised not to raze the city before she did it. I don't think you can argue the tyrannical aspects haven't been there.

Recently, she's lost Jorah, Missandei, her ships and half of her troops. I think that's all meant to have pushed her, along with Jon spurning her.

I think it also showed in how she treated Sansa's objections - that seemed to me like more than just disagreement.

I don't think they sold it in the moment, but I see why they might have thought they did on paper. The main problem is we never clearly saw how each of these things affected her and how they pushed her to what she did. They didn't give her time to develop that twist in her character. I do think Emilia Clarke delivered on everything she was asked to do this season, she just wasn't given enough.

I'm not disagreeing, wholeheartedly, that they didn't hint that she could be viciously terrible. She buried those people in qarth alive, after they undoubtedly plotted to steal her dragons iirc and kill her. she crucified masters, some of whom crucified children. she burns people alive because she has a dragon. None of this is particularly nice, but its a far cry from killing half a million people almost all of whom were innocent and most of whom were children and women.

And, wrt to Sansa, she reached out to her calmly and tried to befriend her until theon showed up and sansa ignored her.

Regardless, it's a story. 90% of the audience thought of dany as a hero or a good person or protagonist or whatever until there were 30 minutes (or whatever) left in ep5. As she's burning the iron fleet, we're cheering because euron is a [expletive] boy that (illogically) killed rhaegal. As she's burning the golden company and breaking down the wall, we're cheering because cersei is a mad queen that blew up margery tyrell and the church thing with her family and the tyrell family in it, wouldn't help defeat the army of the dead, and was just in general a bad person. Then they completely flip the script and over the next half hour to an hour turn dany and her forces into the bad guys to the point that the unsullied and dothraki (who somehow multiplied their numbers exponentially) are the nazis and dany is portrayed as a hitleresque demagogue 10 minutes into ep6. For years we've rooted for greworm and the unsullied. For years we've rooted for dany. Then poof that allegiance is supposed to be gone like a fart in the wind? MAkes zero sense.


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PostPosted: May 21 19, 10:20 am 
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i wouldve probably liked the ending more if it came at the end of 9 seasons instead of 8


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PostPosted: May 21 19, 10:32 am 
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AWvsCBsteeeerike3 wrote:
ghostrunner wrote:
I'm not going to say they sold it, but for every altruistic thing Dany did, she did some pretty awful stuff to people, not all of whom were evil. Every time she's had to put someone to death it's been death after some kind of torture. Burning alive is pretty nasty - that's as much as a few minutes of agony before death. Crucifying the masters - they mostly have it coming, but it's inarguably torturing someone to death. She burned an innocent man in Mereen for Jorah's death to make him an example to others. Buried Xaro and Doreah alive, which is probably the worst. That's anywhere from 1 day to a week of either suffocation or starvation, and who knows what people will do to each other in that situation. A leader trying to inspire goodness in people should maybe think about the effects of those decisions a bit more. In most of those situations she was counseled to be merciful and chose the crueler option. You can say it's to send a message, but that doesn't apply in all those cases. I think she clearly was portrayed as getting off on her power to do and threaten those kinds of actions. She rules by fear and love both.

She's many times threatened to burn cities to the ground - Qarth directly, and the Slavers Bay cities when speaking to Tyrion. That means basically what she did to Kings Landing. And she had to be repeatedly advised not to raze the city before she did it. I don't think you can argue the tyrannical aspects haven't been there.

Recently, she's lost Jorah, Missandei, her ships and half of her troops. I think that's all meant to have pushed her, along with Jon spurning her.

I think it also showed in how she treated Sansa's objections - that seemed to me like more than just disagreement.

I don't think they sold it in the moment, but I see why they might have thought they did on paper. The main problem is we never clearly saw how each of these things affected her and how they pushed her to what she did. They didn't give her time to develop that twist in her character. I do think Emilia Clarke delivered on everything she was asked to do this season, she just wasn't given enough.

I'm not disagreeing, wholeheartedly, that they didn't hint that she could be viciously terrible. She buried those people in qarth alive, after they undoubtedly plotted to steal her dragons iirc and kill her. she crucified masters, some of whom crucified children. she burns people alive because she has a dragon. None of this is particularly nice, but its a far cry from killing half a million people almost all of whom were innocent and most of whom were children and women.

And, wrt to Sansa, she reached out to her calmly and tried to befriend her until theon showed up and sansa ignored her.


She tried to tell Sansa what was going to happen and clearly got pissed when Sansa justifiably wasn't having it. Dany had good points too, but maybe don't yank your hand away right off the bat.

Also thought her rushing to Kings Landing after Winterfell was a clue. Pretty much everyone advised against going there right away, and again she wouldn't listen. Not that it directly foreshadowed genocide, but by that point I was pretty well convinced they were going somewhere in that direction.

Agree that she hadn't ever shown she might kill thousands of innocents, but she threatened to at least a few times.


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