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PostPosted: March 15 19, 10:49 am 
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Swirls wrote:
Honestly I'd prefer it that the black box not be sent here to the US for analysis - Boeing lobbyists would try and sway the results I'm sure. Just like if it was an Airbus plane I wouldn't really want it to be sent to France for analysis (or the US, since we now have Airbus planes being built here as well). Hell, Boeing's CEO personally called Trump to tell him everything was fine and that there was no cause to ground the 737 MAX series aircraft in the US. Trump's current Defense Secretary spent 30 years at Boeing.

It's no surprise to me at all that the US was the last country to ground the 737 MAX and that up until a couple hours prior to the official grounding announcement, the FAA was still publicly boasting that everything was fine and there was no cause for alarm.

Am I wrong that this level of corruption in airplane safety is a real Trump innovation? I was under the impression that the U.S. had been an international leader in high quality accident investigations.


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PostPosted: March 15 19, 1:28 pm 
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gone fission
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Yeah, prior to the current administration, I wouldn't have had that concern. It is my understanding that members of the NTSB will be flying to France to be present during the investigation (along with the NTSB's equivalent from other countries).

https://thepointsguy.com/news/boeings-c ... 737-max-8/

This is a good summary of the position as well:

Quote:
Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg personally called President Donald Trump on Tuesday to guarantee the airworthiness of the Boeing 737 MAX, according to the New York Times.

The Times reported that Muilenburg and Trump were already scheduled to speak Monday after the president tweeted about aviation technology compromising passenger safety. “Airplanes are becoming far too complex to fly,” Trump tweeted. “…The complexity creates danger.”


Quote:
One final consideration is a little bit more political. Boeing is the largest single exporter, by value, in the entire US economy. It has sold more than 5,000 MAX aircraft around the world, with an order book valued at half a trillion dollars. While there is no evident connection between Boeing’s clout and FAA decisions, Boeing and the US government share “a very cozy relationship,” said Jim Hall, the former head of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB). “The manufacturer essentially becomes both the manufacturer and the regulator, because of the lack of the ability of government to do the job.”


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PostPosted: March 15 19, 1:49 pm 
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thanks for the link Swirls. Wow. This is as interesting all heck.

Pure conjecture here, I want to read more: some initial thoughts -it really struck me how Trump went after Boeing on day 1. (Kushner Icahn Bannon DOD dude must have pointed out the prize to the dumb ass).

Then later they were friends. I love Boeing! said Donald
Muilenburg is in a sort of a spot, since he did the donald dance. But still has leverage against king orange, because who else is going to make planes like this for our military and to keep commerce rolling ?

My Boeing friend (a lib btw) he knew this was going to be bad.


Last edited by Freed Roger on March 15 19, 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: March 15 19, 1:50 pm 
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Why doesn't the government have resources for the job?


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PostPosted: March 15 19, 2:08 pm 
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Lots of good info here about Boeing Govt and hence, Trump relationship.
https://qz.com/1572381/the-relationship-between-boeing-trump-and-the-federal-government/ Boeing and government obviously got to have relations...

however Muilenburg should have never dealt direct (publicly)with the banana stand mafioso in the manner he has.

And $1 Million Boeing donation to Trump inaugaration fund. [expletive] that.


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PostPosted: March 15 19, 2:51 pm 
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https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safe ... e-737-max/


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PostPosted: March 15 19, 2:53 pm 
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Freed Roger wrote:
Swirls wrote:
Freed Roger wrote:
Not United discussion , and not to dismiss terrible tragedy where over hundred people died with Ethiopian Air plane going down:

Boeing 737 being grounded is causing a lot of chaos with air travel. Southwest is getting hammered. My wife had a helluva time with cancelled Sw, had to rebook with delta and await SW reimbursement. (we are fortunate to be able to do that).
Never got thru to SW, after being hold for 4 hours. She found out somehow that 10k people were on hold. Scheduled to fly back on a Southest 737 too.

Anyways she is fine. But awful mess for Boeing. Southwest. Jobs stock prices get affected. Heard that the black box went to Germany -our FAA left in kind of in a lurch

Seismic wave affect. Then throw in thousands of flights cancelled due to weather situations (which are getting more normal 1300 in Denver the other day) Again, safety has to be first In light of the tragedy. Still it is a reminder of how fragile things can be, and things we take for granted.


Honestly I'd prefer it that the black box not be sent here to the US for analysis - Boeing lobbyists would try and sway the results I'm sure. Just like if it was an Airbus plane I wouldn't really want it to be sent to France for analysis (or the US, since we now have Airbus planes being built here as well). Hell, Boeing's CEO personally called Trump to tell him everything was fine and that there was no cause to ground the 737 MAX series aircraft in the US. Trump's current Defense Secretary spent 30 years at Boeing.

It's no surprise to me at all that the US was the last country to ground the 737 MAX and that up until a couple hours prior to the official grounding announcement, the FAA was still publicly boasting that everything was fine and there was no cause for alarm.

I ran into a friend who works at Boeing the day of the crash. He was clearly bummed out about the crash and what was to come. Heard an airline expert on NPR -while 737 aren't prevalent just a few percent is enough to throw things out of whack.
Another concern is that 737s was in their pipeline, along with future 797. Expert mentioned how 50 new 737 planes a month(i think) -get stymied. no place to park them at the plant and possibly can't fly them to park elsewhere.

The issue you are talking about, I never though about. But the guy on NPR did say something of how FAA studdered on this.

Again, it is a precarious situation -a powerful quasi-monopoly with intrinsic govt ownership on the DOD side., that is a publicly traded company key to the stock market and lots of livelihoods ....not to mention the safety of people using their products. Easy to see why Team Trump Grift USA, recognized this power play early on and made Boeing CEO do the dance for AF1, etc.

Probably need a new thread

I'd been looking for a thread. Just my 2 cents. It's not all 737's that are grounded. I think most companies have 5-10% of their planes as the 737 Max 8/9 (don't know where i saw this, but they are relatively new). Anyway, the 737 Max 8/9 are the only ones grounded.

Regarding the decision to ground them. I am kind of torn on it. In the past, the FAA along with the NTSB was never wary of grounding planes out of an abundance of caution. I'm not 100% sure what the right decision is. I can see both sides, but the fact of the matter seems to be there is a disastrous unforeseen issue with the MCAS system that not all pilots have been trained how to handle.

If you don't care about it, then skip this paragraph where I mansplain the issues, but it sounds like the Boeing 737 Max airplanes have a function that is intended to prevent pilots from stalling the airplane. Stalls happen when not enough air flows over the wings to provide the lift necessary for a plane to fly (ie, it stops being a plane and becomes a paperweight, serious problem). If a stall does occur at sufficient height, it can be fixed by pitching the nose of the plane down which increases the speed and gets more air flowing over the wings turning it back into a plane (good!). MCAS is supposed to detect when the pitch (nose of the plane) gets too high/vertical for the airspeed and height and pitch the nose back down through the trim function. The problem is the MCAS relies on information from the alpha vane iirc which is outside the plane to tell it what the pitch is. If the alpha vane is wrong, the MCAS system won't work. And, if the MCAS system starts pushing the nose down durning takeoff, well, [expletive] all that's going to push the nose into the ground and kill everyone on board.

All that said, MCAS can be shut off extremely easily (like flipping a light off in the cockpit) and doesn't even function when the flight is in autopilot. The problem, apparently, is that in the two crashes (lion air and Ethiopian Airlines), the pilots didn't know to/how or simply didn't shut the system off when it started malfunctioning. And, there are so many components on a plane, that there are seemingly always minor malfunctions. With proper training, pilots can handle these malfunctions safely. And, this is no exception.

And, Beoing knows there is an issue already and is working on a fix. The question is, do you ground all planes when the problem is a rudimentary one albeit it extremely serious. They could essentially turn off the MCAS system on all planes and they would be perfectly safe albeit not approved. So...it's a weird situation. Was the FAA slow to respond? I don't know. Is it slower to respond because Trump is president? I definitely don't know. But it's a complicated issue. Like I said, I see both sides of the argument.

Also, regarding NTSB, I hold them in the highest regard. I think they do a great and usually thorough job of not just finding a simple explanation, but all the explanations and making recommendations. After the Lion Air crash they did recommend the FAA issue an Airworthiness Directive to make pilots aware of the MCAS faults. And, Boeing sent supplemental instructions, iirc. I doubt they get influenced by politics, at all. The higher ups at the FAA, however, may. And, I'd just as soon send the black boxes to a spot they can be read/analyzed correctly and I'd put the NTSB at the top of the list.


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PostPosted: March 15 19, 3:36 pm 
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It doesn't sound like the MCAS is an optional nice to have system that can be switched off without consequences. It's apparently there because the MAX designs are inherently more prone to stall than prior 737s. Turning it off may replace MCAS malfunction crashes with stall crashes.


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PostPosted: March 15 19, 3:45 pm 
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There are very few 737 MAX aircraft in service right now relative to the number of regular 737's in service. Only a few hundred total worldwide - they didn't enter service until like 2017.

In the US, only Southwest, United, and American have any at all. Southwest has the most - like 34 or 35 I think.

They're just a newer and more fuel efficient version of the regular 737, which is the best selling plane in Boeing's history. The planes replacing the 737 MAX right now are mostly just older 737s that are being rerouted.


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PostPosted: March 15 19, 4:17 pm 
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gone fission
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Arthur Dent wrote:
It doesn't sound like the MCAS is an optional nice to have system that can be switched off without consequences. It's apparently there because the MAX designs are inherently more prone to stall than prior 737s. Turning it off may replace MCAS malfunction crashes with stall crashes.


Yeah, from what I understand it isn't optional and sounds like the pilots were fighting it trying to keep the plane's nose pointed upward.


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