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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: January 12 19, 3:06 pm 
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MacGyver of Underwear
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I don't think there will be problems. Going from SAD (Standard American Diet) to Paleo was mostly replacing grains/breads and sweets with fruits and veggies. Meat pretty much stayed the same. Besides, what is "moderation"? Maybe 50-150 carbs/day is "moderation". (I think this very likely)

Going from Paleo to Keto was basically replacing a handful of paleo-safe things (plantains, most fruits, sweet and white potatoes) with more veggies. (and some healthy fats)

I basically eat 2-3x more vegetables than most people. (based on what I see) Possibly more. I have a difficult time seeing long term problems with eating more vegetables and less sugar and grains. I've also seen a pretty sharp drop in bodyfat%. Again, hard to see long term problems with this.

Unless you mean people who do keto (or any eating diet/lifestyle) with mostly processed and/or fake food, or who make and eat a zillion "keto-safe sweets". I think these (and any) diets/lifestyle only really work if you use real foods.

Also, exercise. Regardless of what diet you have, people need to move more. Too much sitting on the couch, sitting in the car, sitting in the office, sitting in the car, sitting on the couch, laying in bed as a lifestyle.


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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: January 12 19, 3:20 pm 
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darjeeling sipping elite
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On the soft side of things, it seems to make eating a chore (all the counting etc) instead of the human social ritual it used to be. Keto is certainly not the only factor here.
Lots of replacing sugar with stevia. Instead, we could have simply realized that sweets should be treats and eat them in moderation. Bread? Eat good bread, whole grains and not whole grains. Just don’t shove [expletive] bread in your face because it’s there.
Again, not just a keto thing but the joy is sure being taken out of sharing a meal. Count count count.

I have done a deep dive into it yet but is keeping your body in a chronic state of ketosis a good thing? Seems unlikely.


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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: January 12 19, 4:29 pm 
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Agree about stevia and crap, which is why I criticized making "keto sweets". I don't use any of those sugar replacements. I think stuff like that is a bad way to do keto (or any diet). That's for people addicted to sugar. Gotta just let that [expletive] go.

And the counting really isn't a chore. I know a lot of people go overboard with it, but I basically keep a rough idea of net carbs and protein, (and that's only because I have certain athletic health goals) but mostly just eat when I'm hungry. That's it. In fact, the best part about going paleo years ago was that I didn't have to count anything. I just ate paleo and did taekwondo and the weight fell away.

After doing this for a couple of months now, I'm actually convinced that what caused my slow weight increase over the last year was the protein powder/increased protein I was forcing myself to consume because I was trying to build muscle. (And a job I hated, stress eating carby snacks like plantains and potato chips.) Counting for like a week or two helped me realize I pretty easily get enough protein and don't need the powder. Since the 2nd week or so, I don't count other than a rough idea in my head. Just eat the allowed things. I don't actually test or worry about being in ketosis or whatever. If 25-30 net carbs doesn't do it, then its just a low carb paleo diet and that's working. (and I'm having zero drop in athletic performance)

Eating is LESS of a chore, because I basically don't have to worry. Just eat the allowed things and I enjoy them I mean, sure, I'm keeping a rough count of carbs and protein, but again, that's because I personally have specific athletic and health goals.

Ketosis isn't the goal, its a tool to spur fat loss. Once I reach my target weight, (really, target fat%) I'm basically back to paleo, eating roughly 50-150 carbs/day. (When you don't eat grains, sweets and minimal potatoes, that's a TON of carbs, and to me, that's moderation.) Besides, for tens (hundreds?) of thousands of years, humans ate less carbs in winter because they weren't available. They also sometimes are next to nothing for a day or two, then found nuts/fruits/veggies and/or killed something and had a ton of food. So going long stretches in and around keto is probably something humans can handle, and are in fact, wired to handle. That's why occasional fasting is good for you. I mean, sure, fast from food for a month and you die, but fast 16 or 24 hours can have a lot of good benefits.

You keep using the word moderation. Its a funny thing. When people are questioned, they tend to assume that whatever they currently eat is "moderation". They also assume what they "should" eat is a little less. So if someone eats 3-4 cookies/day, they assume moderation is 3-4 cookies/day, but they think they "should" eat 1-2 cookies/day. I have a coworker who thinks one soda and candy bar per day is moderation. Moderation is word we all use that does mean something but also kinda means nothing because its different for everyone.


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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: January 14 19, 12:48 pm 
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JCShutout wrote:

Besides, for tens (hundreds?) of thousands of years, humans ate less carbs in winter because they weren't available. They also sometimes are next to nothing for a day or two, then found nuts/fruits/veggies and/or killed something and had a ton of food. So going long stretches in and around keto is probably something humans can handle, and are in fact, wired to handle. That's why occasional fasting is good for you. I mean, sure, fast from food for a month and you die, but fast 16 or 24 hours can have a lot of good benefits.

Random musings on this: I like to dabble with paleo theory aspects and these mini-fasts.

But I wonder sometimes the truth and historical accuracy behind the theory "the way humans ate for hundreds of thousands of years prior" is the best.
Like I said, I believe there is some truth in it. Though do we really know the overall health (related to diet) of ancient humans? Grains have been eaten and stored for later for thousands of years, so haven't we evolved to handle them generally.

Yeah, I definitely agree the way humans (especially US) started eating in 20th century, processed foods, isn't generally what we are equipped to process efficiently. Paleo though, takes us way back, before grains/rice. Doesn't seem right.

Having lived with dogs my entire life, I do observe the negative effects of most human food on dogs' health/weight. And even the negative effect of some human-food like dog foods.

Last musing: humans can be highly adaptive with regard to diet. I follow the ultra endurance events. and have some friends that are serious about it. What they eat runs the.gamut , from vegan to protein based diets. and they can be successful doing crazy physical stuff on these diets. the common thread seems they tend to eat non-processed foods. and know themselves.

Will try to find the podcast with author Matt Fitzgerald which influenced diet thoughts


Last edited by Freed Roger on January 14 19, 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: January 14 19, 12:56 pm 
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darjeeling sipping elite
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It’s coupon clipping for eating and I think that sucks. Meals should be more fun than that.

You can quibble ‘moderation’ all you want. Your version of moderation is as moderate as the diabeetus laden fatty’s version.

I think the SAD is a terrible idea since in this era it now pretty much means not cooking, and eating tons of processed garbage.

As close to zero calories from liquids makes sense. Unless those liquids are liquors and then, well, there’s my mood altering moderation.

Treats can and should be treats. A slice of pie every now and then is good for your soul.


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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: January 14 19, 1:39 pm 
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I’m a firm believer different diets work for different people. In the past I tended to gravitate toward low fat/calorie diets and it was a huge struggle because I was carb crashing and hungry all the time. Additionally, in my experience, a low calorie diet tended to feel like an endless austerity grind without reward. That’s a huge problem because I love snacking even if I’m not hungry and it’s a massive struggle to deny myself.

With my low carb diet I tend to be less hungry and every day I reward myself with a low carb snack(s) (including some with fake sugars). It just works and is sustainable. Sure, there might be healthier snack options, but realistically those approaches are doomed to fail me over the long-term. It worth noting, my doctor agreed after viewing my check-up. My non-optimal approach is way healthier then carrying around an extra 50 pounds of fat like I used to.

I guess my point is, with weight loss we can talk about what behavior is optimal, but an actual long-term pragmatic sustainable solution can be complicated and intensely personal. With weight loss plans it’s all about seeing the forest and not the trees.


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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: January 14 19, 7:21 pm 
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MacGyver of Underwear
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lukethedrifter wrote:
It’s coupon clipping for eating and I think that sucks. Meals should be more fun than that.

You can quibble ‘moderation’ all you want. Your version of moderation is as moderate as the diabeetus laden fatty’s version.

I think the SAD is a terrible idea since in this era it now pretty much means not cooking, and eating tons of processed garbage.

As close to zero calories from liquids makes sense. Unless those liquids are liquors and then, well, there’s my mood altering moderation.

Treats can and should be treats. A slice of pie every now and then is good for your soul.


When I went paleo, all I had to do was just eat the allowed foods. I didn't worry about amount, how much of this, that, whatnot. Weight came off effortlessly. Meals became MORE enjoyable because I didn't have to worry about having too much of this or that. How is that coupon cutting?

Unless you are arguing that restricting any foods is coupon cutting, in which case, you coupon cut too. You argued against processed foods and liquid calories. Hey man, meals are supposed to be fun. Why are you coupon cutting away your pepsi and Jack in the Box tacos?

An occasional piece of pie is good for YOUR soul. Great. Do it. I'm not your mom.

Whats good for MY soul is that every day since I've lost the bulk of my weight, I've LOVED seeing myself in the mirror. I enjoy it. I think I look strong and good. I used to HATE the mirror. I used to HATE how I looked.

I LOVE the fact that I crave foods that I can have, and that I don't care about foods that I can't have.

What's good for my soul is that I can keep up with, or outclass other taekwondo practitioners who are in the early to mid 20s, 10 to 15 years younger than me. (With the exception of the ones training for the olympics and stuff, they're way better than me)

I'm not arguing against what you or anyone else are doing. I'm just arguing that my lifestyle isn't void of enjoyment. Sure, YOU may not enjoy it, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy it. If you are seeing the results you want from a diet of pasta and ice cream, or a vegan diet, or whatever else, then have at it man.

And your criticism of moderation proves my point. I think mine is moderate. You don't. I think yours isn't. You do.


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