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So if they had gotten rid of Ryan and been able to obtain Furcal in early 2010, without Theriot, would the complaint be we got rid of a young shortstop for an older one who is more expensive?

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The complaint was never Theriot's age. It has always been about the big drop defensively without much of an offensive upgrade. Furcal vs Ryan would be a smaller drop in defense along with significant offensive upside.

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Division Series Game 2 Played on Sunday, October 2, 2011 (N) at Citizens Bank Park

CARDINALS 4TH: Berkman walked; Freese was called out on strikes;
Molina singled to shortstop [Berkman to second]; Theriot doubled
to right [Berkman scored, Molina to third]; Jay singled to right
[Molina scored, Theriot to third, Jay to second (on throw to
home)]; PUNTO BATTED FOR CARPENTER; Punto struck out; Furcal
singled to left [Theriot scored, Jay out at home (left to
catcher)]; 3 R, 4 H, 0 E, 1 LOB. Cardinals 3, Phillies 4.

CARDINALS 6TH: Freese struck out; Molina flied to left; Theriot
doubled to left; Jay singled to left [Theriot scored, Jay to
second (on throw to home)]; SCHUMAKER BATTED FOR SALAS;
Schumaker singled to second [Jay to third]; Furcal forced
Schumaker (third to second); 1 R, 3 H, 0 E, 2 LOB. Cardinals 4,
Phillies 4.

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Division Series Game 3 Played on Tuesday, October 4, 2011 (D) at Busch Stadium III

CARDINALS 2ND: Molina flied to right; Theriot singled to right;
Jay was called out on strikes; Garcia struck out; 0 R, 1 H, 0 E,
1 LOB. Phillies 0, Cardinals 0

CARDINALS 4TH: Freese struck out; Molina grounded out (shortstop
to first); Theriot singled to third; Theriot stole second; Jay
was walked intentionally; Garcia grounded out (shortstop to
first); 0 R, 1 H, 0 E, 2 LOB. Phillies 0, Cardinals 0.

CARDINALS 6TH: Freese was called out on strikes; Molina struck
out; Theriot singled to left; Jay walked [Theriot to second];
Garcia struck out; 0 R, 1 H, 0 E, 2 LOB. Phillies 0, Cardinals
0.

CARDINALS 8TH: Theriot singled to right; BASTARDO REPLACED
WORLEY (PITCHING); PUNTO BATTED FOR JAY; Punto flied to center;
HOLLIDAY BATTED FOR SALAS; LIDGE REPLACED BASTARDO (PITCHING);
Holliday singled to left [Theriot to second]; CHAMBERS RAN FOR
HOLLIDAY; Furcal singled to left [Theriot to third, Chambers to
second]; MADSON REPLACED LIDGE (PITCHING); Craig grounded into a
double play (second to first) [Furcal out at second]; 0 R, 3 H,
0 E, 2 LOB. Phillies 3, Cardinals 1.

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Division Series Game 5 Played on Friday, October 7, 2011 (N) at Citizens Bank Park

CARDINALS 1ST: NLDS Game 5; Furcal tripled to center;
Schumaker doubled to right [Furcal scored]; Pujols reached on a
fielder's choice [Schumaker out at third (second to third)];
Halladay threw a wild pitch [Pujols to second]; Berkman reached
on catcher's interference by Ruiz; Holliday popped to third;
Molina forced Berkman (shortstop to second); 1 R, 2 H, 1 E, 2
LOB. Cardinals 1, Phillies 0.

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No. The point is and still remains that Theriot was equivalent to B Ryan for the 2011 season with the bat and Ryan was much better defensively. And Theriot made roughly 10x more money.

In short, B Ryan was a better player for less money. And he was on the roster. For some reason, Theriot was obtained and then Ryan was shipped off.

Why people don't accept that B Ryan was a better option from not only an on field production standpoint but also an economic standpoint is mind boggling.

In hindsight, I wouldn't change anything about 2011. It was a memorable and an insanely incredible run. But, Mozeliak isn't an omnipotent being that can wield a lightning bolt and shoot awesome baseball plays from his arse. He didnt purposely put together a worse team than he could have just to make that impossible run possible and thereby more memorable. His job is to put the best team together while working within the limitations that his organization has. He did that, but some of his moves didn't result in better on field production. And that is the point.

In the end, he got Furcal, and that kind of nullifies the whole thing as Theriot was removed from the SS position. But, he could have just as easily gotten Furcal with Ryan on the team. And, he could have gone out and spent that $3.5 million on someone useful that would have improved the team making the last charge into the playoffs not so remarkable...because they would have been in a better position.

Like I said, I have trouble wanting to change anything from 2011 because it's got to be one of the best years from September on that any team has ever had. But...like 2006, you can't say that Haren for Mulder was a good trade simply because they won the WS. Clearly, it was awesome. And, clearly, that trade was a mistake.

Further, you know you're reaching to make a point when you use 4-5 at bats as a reason why a trade worked regardless of how valuable those at bats were.

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I don't know that it's right to look at all this from the perspective of one position in the organization. History and convention kind of pushes you that way, but if you look at the things we've read about this front office over the years, it seems pretty clear that at least the ownership, the GM, the director of scouting and the manager have had their hands in this. Convention might tell you that's a recipe for disaster, and you can argue it leads to things like the Lohse contract or the Ryan trade. I also felt that apparent disorganization was a bad thing, and that Walt was a victim of it. But that assumes there's not someone looking at the whole picture and hiring the right people throughout the system. I would have liked to think that ultimately it all came down to one GM with a strong vision, but maybe that's not the only way to do it. Looking at the entire organization today, it looks to me like we're in an awfully good position. A handful of all-stars, a deep and versatile bench, a good bullpen, a very respectable farm system, and a recent championship. You have to give some credit for that, even if you don't give it to Mo.

So has Mo hurt the team? More than, let's say, a replacement level GM? I don't think so. They all seem to make their share of bonehead moves, but they all have to deal with the circumstances at that moment. He's done some good things and some bad things. But I think you can say that about Theo Epstein, Brian Sabean, or Doug Melvin. Maybe with our power-sharing structure, Mo's malleable and flexible enough to be our best option. I understand coming away with the impression that he's not that good, but I think it's a situation where none of us is working on enough information to make that judgement. I'm not trying to appeal to ignorance by saying that, I think it's true. I've read too many weird, murky stories over the years to believe anyone outside has a firm grasp how things operate in the Cardinals FO.

Also - to my eyes (and I think the stats reflect it) Ryan's the best defensive shortstop I've seen on the team since Ozzie, so I definitely think that was a bad trade. There's no reason to sugarcoat it, despite later winning a World Series.

FWIW, I don't think Furcal was available at the time we made the deal with LA for Theriot. And certainly not for some minor-league outfielder.

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"You have to be concerned about the future, but you also have to be more concerned about the present. If you have to give up two or three young kids - who may not be able to play for several years - to get help for your team now, you have to do it." - Bing Devine, 1999

"They call baseball a game because it's too screwed up to be a business." - Jim Bouton, 1971.

"Big deal. Anyone can win games when the other team doesn't score any runs." - Curt Flood to Bob Gibson, circa 1968

Wow, we are really arguing Mo's effectiveness? Wow.

Wow.

After what he did this off season?

Wow.

Just...

Wow.

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Your friendly neighborhood bigot since 2012

Actually, no. I don't think anybody is arguing that Mozeliak has not been a good GM. The argument is more about people sticking their heads in the sand and refusing to admit that one or two moves were bad moves.

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