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PostPosted: July 26 12, 1:42 pm 
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ghostrunner wrote:
IlliniAmy wrote:
Socnorb11 wrote:
IlliniAmy wrote:
The Third Man wrote:
IlliniAmy wrote:
I agree, but I also agree that this case shouldn't be used as the "poster child" for more gun control or less gun control. It's the case of a nutjob. The politicization of it is over-the-top. People want to prevent things like this from happening (who doesn't?) but sometimes a nutcase is a nutcase.


Why should it matter what his motives were?


I promise I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I'm confused by the question. I wasn't commenting on motives.


I'm confused by the entire discussion.

Of course he's a nutjob. Anybody who would do this is a nutjob. The folks who did this in Columbine, West Virginia and Toronto were nutjobs, too. But why not make it more difficult for nutjobs to do this? Maybe this guy was a lazy nutjob, who wouldn't have put forth the effort to do this if it were more difficult. Maybe he couldn't have killed as many people if he didn't have an AR and a high-capacity magazine. Just because he's a nutjob, that doesn't mean that we should try to mitigate these sorts of things.


No one is saying we shouldn't do what we can to prevent it, but jumping to use it to further one's own personal political agenda, whether it be to try and use it to promote more concealed carry, or whether it be to promote stricter gun control, or to try and erroneously prove that the tea party was involved, is wrong.


Ideally, a political agenda is based on trying to make things better. That's not true in all cases, but I dont think anyone here is trying to do that. I don't understand why the issue is even considered political, honestly. This particular case reveals a few places where laws could be improved, IMO. To me it's the best time to have that discussion.


I totally agree. If not now, then when is the right time to have the political discussion?

We normally go straight from "It's too early" to "I've forgotten about it".

And using this to "advance a political agenda" is a different thing than using it to "spark a discussion about how to solve a problem".

Once again, the problem here *seems* to be that one side wants to do something to solve the problem, and the other side doesn't even want to acknowledge that there is a problem, or at least engage in a discussion.

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PostPosted: July 26 12, 1:45 pm 
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cards2468 wrote:
pioneer98 wrote:
I think we recognize that people who want to go out and murder people are likely to do so if they are really determined. Weirdly, I don't think that's what happened in this case, and I don't think it is what happens in most cases:

James Holmes bought rifle after failing oral exam at University of Colorado

He had a bad day, and decided to go buy a gun. Yes, he had been arming himself for a while, but it was this one single event in his life that pushed him over the edge. Why would it be so bad if we had rules that wouldn't let people go buy a gun because they had a bad day???? Go back and look at all these other incidents, and I bet you will find warning signs, but then one event that lit the fuse.

Along these same lines...I tend to agree that people that are highly determined to go on a murder spree and plan for it over several months are going to be very tough to stop, no matter what we do. So what if instead of trying to prevent these indicents that are so tough to prevent, why don't we work on trying to prevent the easy ones, like accidental gun deaths? The U.S. had 587 accidental gun deaths in 2008. Japan had 11 total gun deaths. Do these numbers mean nothing? These should be preventable incidents, right?

So they should check their test scores from school? I'm not disagreeing with you, I just don't know how we're supposed to know if they're about to go overboard or not without significant warning signs. My best recommendation is for purchase of hand guns and assault rifles is to require a license to own (but not for hunting rifles and shot guns as to not anger 2nd Amendment people), and acquiring a license requires references and a personality exam. It still has its holes, but perhaps we could pick out these psychos before they become armed.


If you read the article, he bought the gun hours after the exam incident. I think it would be good if Colorado had a waiting period.

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PostPosted: July 26 12, 1:49 pm 
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pioneer98 wrote:
cards2468 wrote:
pioneer98 wrote:
I think we recognize that people who want to go out and murder people are likely to do so if they are really determined. Weirdly, I don't think that's what happened in this case, and I don't think it is what happens in most cases:

James Holmes bought rifle after failing oral exam at University of Colorado

He had a bad day, and decided to go buy a gun. Yes, he had been arming himself for a while, but it was this one single event in his life that pushed him over the edge. Why would it be so bad if we had rules that wouldn't let people go buy a gun because they had a bad day???? Go back and look at all these other incidents, and I bet you will find warning signs, but then one event that lit the fuse.

Along these same lines...I tend to agree that people that are highly determined to go on a murder spree and plan for it over several months are going to be very tough to stop, no matter what we do. So what if instead of trying to prevent these indicents that are so tough to prevent, why don't we work on trying to prevent the easy ones, like accidental gun deaths? The U.S. had 587 accidental gun deaths in 2008. Japan had 11 total gun deaths. Do these numbers mean nothing? These should be preventable incidents, right?

So they should check their test scores from school? I'm not disagreeing with you, I just don't know how we're supposed to know if they're about to go overboard or not without significant warning signs. My best recommendation is for purchase of hand guns and assault rifles is to require a license to own (but not for hunting rifles and shot guns as to not anger 2nd Amendment people), and acquiring a license requires references and a personality exam. It still has its holes, but perhaps we could pick out these psychos before they become armed.


If you read the article, he bought the gun hours after the exam incident. I think it would be good if Colorado had a waiting period.

I don't disagree, though I don't think it would have made a difference here. That dude was gone.

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PostPosted: July 26 12, 1:57 pm 
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Diddy wrote:
To comment on a few points i dont have a problems with a "cooling off period" or more checks to get these rifles. However i do feel that you have to be pretty f-ed in the head to do something like this and i dont know that cooling off is going to change that.

I hate the sanctimonious bs, about "saving one life" making it worth it, there are a whole list of things that could be done to "save one life", but who wants to live in a box? Obviously there are alot of people that believe their freedoms are more important to them, freedom is the essence of being an american. I want to have the same freedoms my grandparents had and for my grandchilderen to enjoy those same freedoms, not to have them slowly whittled away. Many, many american lives have been spent to save our freedoms, i dont want legislatures taking away what soldiers fought to keep.

I absolutely hate hearing about these tradgities and they make me sick inside when i do hear about them, i dont desire for people to be carelessly killed. I do however feel that people that want to do this will find a way, but currently the gun is the "envogue" way to do it these days. I dont however believe the conspiracy theories that the government had this done to push through gun regulation. Its pretty damn easy to find out how to build a bomb to use for mass killings.

How many people here live in fear daily because of guns? That is probably the last fear that crosses my mind. Most of my daily "fears" have to do with other drivers that dont know what they are doing not wondering if im going to get shot when i get gas.


I've said this before: if we want to keep our freedoms, "we" have to find a way to use our freedoms responsibly. This means every nut job, too. If there are citizens that are not capable of using their freedoms responsibly, then we should be putting way more effort into helping these individuals. Asking the government to fix problems for us is the easy and lazy way out, and also the one that could ultimately take away a freedom in the end. If we don't want government to step in and fix it, then we need to fix it ourselves. I think it means being a lot more vigilant about mental health issues, and vigilent about noticing who is buying lots of guns, etc. Some academic person smarter than me needs to do a study where cases like this were thwarted (because I know there are many examples) and see what we can learn from them. How were they thwarted? What was the key variable or two? If we can identify that, then we would need a campaign to educate the whole population. Just one suggestion. Granted, this is a very difficult thing to do, and would take a sustained effort. How badly do you want to keep your freedom?

I think it could be done. I don't think we will ever totally eliminate these incidents, but I think we could reduce them by quite a bit.

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PostPosted: July 26 12, 2:54 pm 
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cards2468 wrote:
pioneer98 wrote:
cards2468 wrote:
pioneer98 wrote:
I think we recognize that people who want to go out and murder people are likely to do so if they are really determined. Weirdly, I don't think that's what happened in this case, and I don't think it is what happens in most cases:

James Holmes bought rifle after failing oral exam at University of Colorado

He had a bad day, and decided to go buy a gun. Yes, he had been arming himself for a while, but it was this one single event in his life that pushed him over the edge. Why would it be so bad if we had rules that wouldn't let people go buy a gun because they had a bad day???? Go back and look at all these other incidents, and I bet you will find warning signs, but then one event that lit the fuse.

Along these same lines...I tend to agree that people that are highly determined to go on a murder spree and plan for it over several months are going to be very tough to stop, no matter what we do. So what if instead of trying to prevent these indicents that are so tough to prevent, why don't we work on trying to prevent the easy ones, like accidental gun deaths? The U.S. had 587 accidental gun deaths in 2008. Japan had 11 total gun deaths. Do these numbers mean nothing? These should be preventable incidents, right?

So they should check their test scores from school? I'm not disagreeing with you, I just don't know how we're supposed to know if they're about to go overboard or not without significant warning signs. My best recommendation is for purchase of hand guns and assault rifles is to require a license to own (but not for hunting rifles and shot guns as to not anger 2nd Amendment people), and acquiring a license requires references and a personality exam. It still has its holes, but perhaps we could pick out these psychos before they become armed.


If you read the article, he bought the gun hours after the exam incident. I think it would be good if Colorado had a waiting period.

I don't disagree, though I don't think it would have made a difference here. That dude was gone.


Man, I don't think it's easy to just make that assumption. A waiting period can't hurt a thing, and there's always a possibility that it might prevent something like this. What's the harm?

See, people asking for gun control aren't expecting to get guns off of the streets and out of everyone's homes. We're asking for compromise, with the hope that it might help just a little bit. The fact that gun activists will hear none of it is troubling, and it makes them look stubborn and irresponsible, in my opinion. If anything, gun activists should be leading the way in trying to prevent this sort of thing, so that they DON'T lose their rights. Instead, they're just brushing it under the rug and refusing to acknowledge that there might be ways to make just a little headway toward preventing an incident like this.

Footnote: I'm not really directing this at you, Cards2468. I think your comment was innocent enough, and I'm not even sure if you are a gun activist.


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PostPosted: July 26 12, 3:54 pm 
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I'll clarify my stance some. I own a gun, I plan on owning more guns, I like guns... but I agree with the sentiment that if organizations like the NRA want to fight for allowing us to own all sorts of weapons, they should also be leading the way in protecting us from these guns. With rights come responsibility. There are certain things I required of myself before owning a gun and there are things I will require of myself before I consider purchasing a hand gun... and this is beyond what the law requires.

I was just making a statement that I think this guy went enough off the deep end that I'm not sure the waiting period would have affected him. It sounds like he mapped out plans and I heard today that he had sent his plans to a professor, but it was not read. I wouldn't mind a waiting period at all. I take a long time to decide to purchase a gun, that waiting another 3 days wouldn't bother me at all. I would especially approve of it if it meant a more thorough background check. I'm still advocating licensing in order to own hand guns and semi-automatic rifles, and I would like to see the NRA fund research that could help us identify nut jobs through simple tests that would be part of the licensing process.

All I'm saying is that the solution here isn't simple. We can't just ban certain weapons, amounts of ammo that can be purchased at a time, or ban magazine sizes to solve a problem.

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PostPosted: July 26 12, 5:07 pm 
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PostPosted: July 26 12, 8:14 pm 
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James Holmes Sent Notebook To CU Prof

Quote:
AURORA, Colo. -- The man accused in last Friday's mass shooting at an Aurora movie theater sent a notebook full of details about how he was going to kill people to a University of Colorado psychiatrist before the attack, reported Fox News.

The notebook was mailed to the professor and sat unopened in a mail room for as long as a week before it was found Monday, the report stated. However, a spokeswoman for the University of Colorado Anschutz Medical Campus denied the report, and said the Fox News report was inaccurate.

Quote:
Sources familiar with the investigation say that Aurora police and the FBI believe that a notebook sent to a CU faculty member, containing what is termed "important information" was sent prior to the theater killings by suspect James Holmes. Police and the FBI are examining the notebook which reportedly contains violent images and notes, Ferrugia reported.

Consider the source, I guess. But wow, if it's true.

Sorry for the interruption. Back to the gun debate.

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PostPosted: July 26 12, 10:53 pm 
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Radbird wrote:
James Holmes Sent Notebook To CU Prof

Quote:
AURORA, Colo. -- The man accused in last Friday's mass shooting at an Aurora movie theater sent a notebook full of details about how he was going to kill people to a University of Colorado psychiatrist before the attack, reported Fox News.

The notebook was mailed to the professor and sat unopened in a mail room for as long as a week before it was found Monday, the report stated. However, a spokeswoman for the University of Colorado Anschutz Medical Campus denied the report, and said the Fox News report was inaccurate.

Quote:
Sources familiar with the investigation say that Aurora police and the FBI believe that a notebook sent to a CU faculty member, containing what is termed "important information" was sent prior to the theater killings by suspect James Holmes. Police and the FBI are examining the notebook which reportedly contains violent images and notes, Ferrugia reported.

Consider the source, I guess. But wow, if it's true.

Sorry for the interruption. Back to the gun debate.

An interesting note on that report, it was done John Ferrugia, who is from Fulton,MO. I know a bunch of his family and he did the graduation address at my brothers graduation in 1985.

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PostPosted: July 28 12, 6:47 am 
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