Matthew Liberatore Traded to Cards

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MrCrowesGarden
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Re: Matthew Liberatore Traded to Cards

Post by MrCrowesGarden »

Popeye_Card wrote:
October 30 20, 1:41 pm
MrCrowesGarden wrote:
October 30 20, 1:27 pm
Popeye_Card wrote:
October 30 20, 1:06 pm
There's a difference between "bad" and "boring". An 88 win team is exciting for Pirate fans. It is boring by now for Cardinal fans. I doubt anyone considers many 88 win teams "bad".
But I don't think they'll have 88-win aspirations now.

I don't think bad either, but the "good enough" is an appropriate descriptor.
That's fine. And I think we ultimately agree that the direction of the team needs to change.

I think I'm in favor of a quick re-build - punt 2021 and build for 2022 and beyond. But I understand if others look at the roster and what's available in the market, and want to go for it.

I think I would also be in favor of someone besides Mo presiding over the change, but at this point in the offseason already I don't see that happening.

I would've liked to see them go for it of course. I suspect there's going to be at least a couple teams that do, and the Cardinals should be among them (signing Realmuto for instance would be the most obvious fix for now and later.)

I agree on going a new direction but not expecting it to happen. Mo is getting paid quite well to take the heat for Bill Dewitt's unpopular decisions.

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dmarx114
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Re: Matthew Liberatore Traded to Cards

Post by dmarx114 »

Big Amoco Sign wrote:
October 30 20, 12:34 pm
Famous Mortimer wrote:
October 30 20, 8:16 am
dmarx114 wrote:
October 30 20, 6:58 am

The Reds haven't been to the NLCS in 25 years, but Cardinals fans just say "meh" and "dreadful" in spite of all our success.

We are sooooooooo spoiled.
It's like you want the Cardinals to lose. Like I said in another thread, Barcelona (and Manchester United, and probably plenty of others) have season-winning streaks that makes the Cardinals' look pathetic. If we think the Cardinals are an elite sports team, we should want them to win every year and be annoyed when they don't.
We should be so stinkin' happy with our mediocre dinner!!!! Shut up and eat!

I love that we're now changing the definition of "spoiled" in real time. Means nothing. You can call a product bad if it's bad.
The words mediocre and bad do not mean what you think they mean. When you finish over .500 for 13 straight years, along with a good amount of playoff success, that is NOT mediocre, let alone bad.

If someone wants to call the Cardinals boring, because the offense is below average, that's their prerogative. I am bored when they lose. If the Cardinals win low scoring games on their way to a battle for the playoffs throughout the season, I am perfectly OK with watching that style of baseball.

But when you call the produce "bad", you're just flat out wrong.

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Big Amoco Sign
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Re: Matthew Liberatore Traded to Cards

Post by Big Amoco Sign »

Difference of opinion. Like I said, it's a unique kind of torture to be a .510 team forever than a team with high ups and downs.

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MrCrowesGarden
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Re: Matthew Liberatore Traded to Cards

Post by MrCrowesGarden »

dmarx114 wrote:
October 30 20, 3:45 pm
Big Amoco Sign wrote:
October 30 20, 12:34 pm
Famous Mortimer wrote:
October 30 20, 8:16 am
dmarx114 wrote:
October 30 20, 6:58 am

The Reds haven't been to the NLCS in 25 years, but Cardinals fans just say "meh" and "dreadful" in spite of all our success.

We are sooooooooo spoiled.
It's like you want the Cardinals to lose. Like I said in another thread, Barcelona (and Manchester United, and probably plenty of others) have season-winning streaks that makes the Cardinals' look pathetic. If we think the Cardinals are an elite sports team, we should want them to win every year and be annoyed when they don't.
We should be so stinkin' happy with our mediocre dinner!!!! Shut up and eat!

I love that we're now changing the definition of "spoiled" in real time. Means nothing. You can call a product bad if it's bad.
The words mediocre and bad do not mean what you think they mean. When you finish over .500 for 13 straight years, along with a good amount of playoff success, that is NOT mediocre, let alone bad.

If someone wants to call the Cardinals boring, because the offense is below average, that's their prerogative. I am bored when they lose. If the Cardinals win low scoring games on their way to a battle for the playoffs throughout the season, I am perfectly OK with watching that style of baseball.

But when you call the produce "bad", you're just flat out wrong.
Finishing slightly above .500 four of the past five seasons is mediocre, and they have been outclassed by the Cubs in the division easily in that timeframe.

They are getting diminishing returns, perhaps by design.

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Re: Matthew Liberatore Traded to Cards

Post by dmarx114 »

MrCrowesGarden wrote:
October 30 20, 4:17 pm
dmarx114 wrote:
October 30 20, 3:45 pm
Big Amoco Sign wrote:
October 30 20, 12:34 pm
Famous Mortimer wrote:
October 30 20, 8:16 am
dmarx114 wrote:
October 30 20, 6:58 am

The Reds haven't been to the NLCS in 25 years, but Cardinals fans just say "meh" and "dreadful" in spite of all our success.

We are sooooooooo spoiled.
It's like you want the Cardinals to lose. Like I said in another thread, Barcelona (and Manchester United, and probably plenty of others) have season-winning streaks that makes the Cardinals' look pathetic. If we think the Cardinals are an elite sports team, we should want them to win every year and be annoyed when they don't.
We should be so stinkin' happy with our mediocre dinner!!!! Shut up and eat!

I love that we're now changing the definition of "spoiled" in real time. Means nothing. You can call a product bad if it's bad.
The words mediocre and bad do not mean what you think they mean. When you finish over .500 for 13 straight years, along with a good amount of playoff success, that is NOT mediocre, let alone bad.

If someone wants to call the Cardinals boring, because the offense is below average, that's their prerogative. I am bored when they lose. If the Cardinals win low scoring games on their way to a battle for the playoffs throughout the season, I am perfectly OK with watching that style of baseball.

But when you call the produce "bad", you're just flat out wrong.
Finishing slightly above .500 four of the past five seasons is mediocre, and they have been outclassed by the Cubs in the division easily in that timeframe.

They are getting diminishing returns, perhaps by design.
This is fake news.

I would accept "slightly" above .500 in 2 of last 5. But I would also argue this season was 58 games, and we had an insane schedule where minor league pitchers were constantly pitching in big spots. Finishing at 30-28 was quite an accomplishment. I would also question your selective endpoint of 5 years, and ask why you excluded the 2015 season where they won 100 games.

But if you want to use your selective endpoint, than the Cards finished this many games over .500 in the previous 4 seasons (this season obviously should be discounted due to 58 games and 11 double headers):

2019: 20
2018: 14
2017: 4
2016: 10

This averages out to 12 games over .500 a year.

That's not slightly over .500.

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MrCrowesGarden
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Re: Matthew Liberatore Traded to Cards

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Of course it's slightly above .500.

"games over .500" is a fun way to frame it because of how you phrase it. You see an 86-76 team and say it's 10 games over .500 (that's also a win percentage of 53%), I say if five of those wins are instead losses, and they're 81-81.

2016: five wins go the other way and they're .500
2017: two games
2018: seven games
2019 they were good, I won't dispute it.
2020: one game

I chose arbitrary endpoints because you've done the same thing, and I'm looking at recent history, where they've missed three of five years and made it this year in a BS expanded playoff format.

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Re: Matthew Liberatore Traded to Cards

Post by tlombard »

Yay, another thread devolving into 'why the team that brings me joy to watch actually sucks.' Do I want more to be done to build a winner? Yes. At the same time, we could be fans of teams that never have a chance. I have loved baseball since I can remember and for me, it's more about the game than winning and losing as long as the team isn't completely embarrassed night in and night out.

I also don't get the constant whining about how a billionaire runs the team. I really don't get the constant mention of how much the value of the team has grown. That has no impact on the daily operations until the team is sold and in that case, the impact is most likely negative with the new ownership group needing to pay off debt. I can have a classic car in the garage that appreciates in value but that doesn't mean I can spend that much more money on it to make it go faster. The franchise value has nothing to do with anything other than maybe allowing them to take on debt until the team is sold and I would never want an owner that would do something that stupid because it's a recipe for decades of sucking even worse than these past few years.

It also kills me that we all complain about the lack of adding big bats and such to improve the offense (myself included) but thinking back, if you had told me in 2017 that the team would add Ozuna for 18 and then have him and Goldy in the lineup for 2019 along with what they had already in 2017... I would have been ready to buy World Series tickets. It didn't work out but I can't say that Mo didn't make any efforts to add serious pop to the lineup before this weird ass 2020 season.

And that's that. Time for me to shower and go to work. I had planned on leaving for work early so I could get something to eat on the way before the store opens at noon... but I got sucked in here instead. LOL.

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Re: Matthew Liberatore Traded to Cards

Post by Famous Mortimer »

tlombard wrote:
November 1 20, 11:08 am
I can have a classic car in the garage that appreciates in value but that doesn't mean I can spend that much more money on it to make it go faster.
If you were already very very rich and cared about having the fastest car, you absolutely could spend more money on it.
tlombard wrote:
November 1 20, 11:08 am
The franchise value has nothing to do with anything other than maybe allowing them to take on debt until the team is sold and I would never want an owner that would do something that stupid because it's a recipe for decades of sucking even worse than these past few years.
Or get loans at rates normal humans could only dream of, or vast amounts of public money to not move, or tax breaks...come on, you're not this naive.

I'm not one of the people, any more, who is screaming at the FO to spend more money. I think they did, and sadly the people they spent their money on stopped performing at the level we'd hope for a little too soon. My argument was against those people who think Cardinals fans who want them to field a winning team every year are somehow "spoiled", because of previous success. I think the billionaire who gets people on message boards to do his job of crying poor for him is spoiled, myself.

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Re: Matthew Liberatore Traded to Cards

Post by MrCrowesGarden »

The Cardinals do bring me less joy than they used to, and it’s largely because of the decisions of Bill Dewitt. He’s using the Cardinals to find BPV, not the other way around, and any fan of a team would be justified to feel that way.

The maddening part wasn’t adding Ozuna or Goldy, it was just slamming the brakes on those off seasons after making those acquisitions.

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Re: Matthew Liberatore Traded to Cards

Post by dmarx114 »

MrCrowesGarden wrote:
October 30 20, 6:17 pm
Of course it's slightly above .500.

"games over .500" is a fun way to frame it because of how you phrase it. You see an 86-76 team and say it's 10 games over .500 (that's also a win percentage of 53%), I say if five of those wins are instead losses, and they're 81-81.

2016: five wins go the other way and they're .500
2017: two games
2018: seven games
2019 they were good, I won't dispute it.
2020: one game

I chose arbitrary endpoints because you've done the same thing, and I'm looking at recent history, where they've missed three of five years and made it this year in a BS expanded playoff format.
Where's Jim to point out that if the queen had balls she would be king?

Also, I don't choose arbitrary endpoints. I have been discussing Mo's time as GM, which is 2008 and later.

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