White Sox fire Rick Renteria/TLR Hired (p.3)

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Re: White Sox fire Rick Renteria/TLR Hired (p.3)

Post by Leroy »

I don't remember anything racist, but that is what everyone is saying so there must be something.

May have something to do with giraffes and pajamas, I can't be sure.

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Re: White Sox fire Rick Renteria/TLR Hired (p.3)

Post by Famous Mortimer »

Freed Roger wrote:
November 11 20, 10:26 am
and, does Larussa have rep of being racist?
It's mostly a "read between the lines" thing. Here's a really good article from Jeff Passan a few years ago, when TLR was merely the ineffective FO person for the Diamondbacks.

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/the-hypoc ... 57175.html

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Re: White Sox fire Rick Renteria/TLR Hired (p.3)

Post by Freed Roger »

No need to pile on but:
when I read the SI article years ago about how gave up parental and visitation rights to 2 kids from former marriage was something that drove home that he is a real world clowndick.

Prior to that , I'd watch his post-game pressers and think TLR seems like a jackass but maybe he is just an incommunicative with an aversion to media.

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Re: White Sox fire Rick Renteria/TLR Hired (p.3)

Post by OmahaCard79 »

LaRussa is a jackass at times, a winning jackass, but a jackass. Sometimes that jackassery is what leads driven people to succeed. It's a blind spot to the feelings and needs of others and a focus on themselves. You can see that in him with his abandonment of his first family with seemingly no care or remorse about it.

The two DUI's are bad. But, look around baseball. Miguel Cabrera has had two DUI's and no one talks about that. They are shining his Hall of Fame plaque as we speak. Dan McLoughlin has had problems with alcohol and is still gainfully employed by the Cardinals. I'm not necessarily sure that two DUI's separated by nearly 15 years is something that realistically would cost a manager his job in and of itself.

I do have problems with the media trying to connect these DUI's to the comments he made in 2016. I do not agree with LaRussa's comments on kneeling for the flag, but honestly, his statements were rather tame compared to what others have said on the subject. I actually agree with his comments about baseball trying to reach out to black athletes to create more paths into the game for them. No matter what anyone thinks, it is a complicated subject when it comes to anthem protests and both sides are going to be at odds over this. And, I think the problem with our society is that neither side wants to see the others concerns. To make your stance on this subject a litmus test for your fitness to even be eligible for a job is also dangerous.

I have big problems with the media painting LaRussa as a racist over his 2016 comments. That feels like a media narrative born out of constant editorial churn. His 40 year body of work doesn't support him being a flaming racist. Yes, he had issues with Ozzie. But, he's been praised by a number of minority ballplayers that have been under him in the past. He's had a close relationship with Dave Stewart for over 30 years. He seemed to be able to push the right buttons in Rickey Henderson in a way that other managers struggled with at times and I've not recalled Henderson having ill words about him. He was often praised by Latin players for the ability and willingness to converse with them in their native language, something other managers didn't bother to learn. He went to bat for Harold Baines in a way few others did. These do not seem like the traits of a racist.

I just think this narrative of trying to paint him as a racist is dangerous. Yeah, he's likely not a great guy. Baseball history past and present is filled with bad guys. If the White Sox knew about this and still hired him, I honestly think they should stick by him and lay in the bed they made unless there is something about the facts he misconstrued to them.

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Re: White Sox fire Rick Renteria/TLR Hired (p.3)

Post by Big Amoco Sign »

His comments about the anthem were beyond bad. It doesn't matter if he has people praising him. You can still be a racist, honestly. He made his own bed. It has nothing to do with dangerous narratives. Tony did this to himself. Tony going to bat for Harold Baines had more to do with praising players linked to him--an ego motivation, not the race of the player.

It's even worse that Tony's been around baseball 40+ years and didn't understand what Adam Jones was saying. And then double down by telling "them" how he'd order "them" to behave. Doesn't sound like someone who has a fine tuned racial compass or whatever.

And why is the goal to defend Tony La Russa rather than going "Hmm we should be listening to Marcus Stroman, a black athlete." Sometimes that could be a bit racist too--acting like he's in the wrong automatically and "misguided."

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Re: White Sox fire Rick Renteria/TLR Hired (p.3)

Post by Famous Mortimer »

OmahaCard79 wrote:
November 12 20, 10:12 am
The two DUI's are bad. But, look around baseball. Miguel Cabrera has had two DUI's and no one talks about that. They are shining his Hall of Fame plaque as we speak. Dan McLoughlin has had problems with alcohol and is still gainfully employed by the Cardinals. I'm not necessarily sure that two DUI's separated by nearly 15 years is something that realistically would cost a manager his job in and of itself.
So, are we being too easy on Miguel Cabrera or too harsh on TLR? Dan seems to be pretty honest about his problems with alcohol and was serious about rehab - TLR isn't, and hasn't, and lied when he said he was never going to make this "mistake" again.
OmahaCard79 wrote:
November 12 20, 10:12 am
I have big problems with the media painting LaRussa as a racist over his 2016 comments. That feels like a media narrative born out of constant editorial churn. His 40 year body of work doesn't support him being a flaming racist. Yes, he had issues with Ozzie. But, he's been praised by a number of minority ballplayers that have been under him in the past. He's had a close relationship with Dave Stewart for over 30 years. He seemed to be able to push the right buttons in Rickey Henderson in a way that other managers struggled with at times and I've not recalled Henderson having ill words about him. He was often praised by Latin players for the ability and willingness to converse with them in their native language, something other managers didn't bother to learn. He went to bat for Harold Baines in a way few others did. These do not seem like the traits of a racist.
I don't think a baseball forum is the best place to debate the history of racism, maybe.

But, that he was able to manage some of the most talented baseball players of all time without suggesting they go pick cotton for him is not necessarily a point in his favour. Look at https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/One_of_the_good_ones for plenty of examples.

You might be right about the media narrative, but why don't you assume the stories about him being good with player X is a result of the same "media churn"? Why is it only the things you disagree with that you subject to such scrutiny? And like Big Amoco Sign said, it's always the black people who are accusing others of racism are the ones who are exaggerating, or just straight-out lying. Why is that, do you think? Why have so many people accused LaRussa of being a racist if he isn't?
Last edited by Famous Mortimer on November 12 20, 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: White Sox fire Rick Renteria/TLR Hired (p.3)

Post by OmahaCard79 »

Big Amoco Sign wrote:
November 12 20, 10:23 am
His comments about the anthem were beyond bad. It doesn't matter if he has people praising him. You can still be a racist, honestly. He made his own bed. It has nothing to do with dangerous narratives. Tony did this to himself. Tony going to bat for Harold Baines had more to do with praising players linked to him--an ego motivation, not the race of the player.

It's even worse that Tony's been around baseball 40+ years and didn't understand what Adam Jones was saying. And then double down by telling "them" how he'd order "them" to behave. Doesn't sound like someone who has a fine tuned racial compass or whatever.

And why is the goal to defend Tony La Russa rather than going "Hmm we should be listening to Marcus Stroman, a black athlete." Sometimes that could be a bit racist too--acting like he's in the wrong automatically and "misguided."
I think treating the comments on the anthem as a litmus test to whether you're fit to hold a job is a dangerous trend that's mainly media driven. This is also coming from someone who supports these types of protests, but also acknowledges that they are a hot button topic. You can call his comments "beyond bad" but half the country would also have called kneeling for the anthem "beyond bad". It's not a simple, black and white situation and the fact that we have a country where each side is looking to demonize anyone who doesn't hold their views is only driving the wedge further. I think the sentiment is slowly moving towards acceptance of these types of civil disobedience, but in 2016, it was probably more than 50% of the country that was against kneeling for the anthem.

I'm just never going to be the type that is going to disqualify someone totally for a job based on a comment unless it's extremely racist. The idea of not supporting kneeling for the flag is racist, in and of itself, is debatable. I can see the side of veterans and active duty military (living in a highly military neighborhood) and they don't agree with it and never will. I disagree with them and will continue to, but their opinions have vailidity.

The left wants to believe that everyone should share their purity on these matters. But, having a hard line, no room for discussion or compromise ideal on this type of stuff likely flat out cost them elections this year.

As for Stroman, he's absolutely entitled to his opinion, but to consider one players comments on LaRussa to be a referendum on his ability to manage or hold a job would be foolhardy and the media absolutely pointed to this single anecdotal comment and said "SEE! SEEE! LA RUSSA HAS LOST ANY CHANCE OF MANAGING BLACK PLAYERS!!!" It was pure unbridled foaming at the mouth red meat when that came out.

I just think there has to be room for a middle ground of understanding of different viewpoints if this country stands any chance of survival going forward and demonizing every person who's made a comment or disagrees with your sensibilities isn't the way.

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Re: White Sox fire Rick Renteria/TLR Hired (p.3)

Post by Big Amoco Sign »

It isn't just Stroman.

And it's equally as dangerous to go "this <black player> must be misguided, no way Tony could be racist."

I definitely agree that around 2016, the neoliberals (center left, more than 'leftists') have backed themselves into a woke corner, specifically NYC journos and media types. But that doesn't excuse Tony here. There's no "middle ground" to racism. If you can't understand a black player's struggle with the anthem (really basic [expletive] to be honest) then you have a problem you need to address within yourself.

Kneeling for the flag isn't racist. But kneeling in an overt response to a black player or black player-supporting non-POC doing it--could be considered racist. There's an argument at least.
Last edited by Big Amoco Sign on November 12 20, 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: White Sox fire Rick Renteria/TLR Hired (p.3)

Post by OmahaCard79 »

Famous Mortimer wrote:
November 12 20, 11:09 am
OmahaCard79 wrote:
November 12 20, 10:12 am
I have big problems with the media painting LaRussa as a racist over his 2016 comments. That feels like a media narrative born out of constant editorial churn. His 40 year body of work doesn't support him being a flaming racist. Yes, he had issues with Ozzie. But, he's been praised by a number of minority ballplayers that have been under him in the past. He's had a close relationship with Dave Stewart for over 30 years. He seemed to be able to push the right buttons in Rickey Henderson in a way that other managers struggled with at times and I've not recalled Henderson having ill words about him. He was often praised by Latin players for the ability and willingness to converse with them in their native language, something other managers didn't bother to learn. He went to bat for Harold Baines in a way few others did. These do not seem like the traits of a racist.
I don't think a baseball forum is the best place to debate the history of racism, maybe.

But, that he was able to manage some of the most talented baseball players of all time without suggesting they go pick cotton for him is not necessarily a point in his favour. Look at https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/One_of_the_good_ones for plenty of examples.

You might be right about the media narrative, but why don't you assume the stories about him being good with player X is a result of the same "media churn"? Why is it only the things you disagree with that you subject to such scrutiny? And like Big Amoco Sign said, it's always the black people who are accusing others of racism are the ones who are exaggerating, or just straight-out lying. Why is that, do you think? Why have so many people accused LaRussa of being a racist if he isn't?
Who has actually accused LaRussa of being a racist though? The media took comments which would have been made by roughly 50% of the population and declared him a racist. I've not seen a single player come out and say "Look, I played for this guy and he's a flat out racist." Not a single one.

Stroman has no relationship with LaRussa. He just said he wouldn't want to play for him. That is absolutely his right. The media spun that to somehow be a further indictment of LaRussa based on nothing in particular.

I just find the narrative to be poor. It's trying to connect disparate incidents/arguments to paint a picture that's flimsy at best.

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Re: White Sox fire Rick Renteria/TLR Hired (p.3)

Post by OmahaCard79 »

Big Amoco Sign wrote:
November 12 20, 11:12 am
It isn't just Stroman.

And it's equally as dangerous to go "this <black player> must be misguided, no way Tony could be racist."

I definitely agree that around 2016, the neoliberals (center left, more than 'leftists') have backed themselves into a woke corner, specifically NYC journos and media types. But that doesn't excuse Tony here. There's no "middle ground" to racism. If you can't understand a black player's struggle with the anthem (really basic [expletive] to be honest) then you have a problem you need to address within yourself.
Where did I ever call Stroman misguided. And who else has come out and specifically called La Russa racist based on their actual dealings with the man?

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