Youth Baseball Pitching

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AWvsCBsteeeerike3
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Youth Baseball Pitching

Post by AWvsCBsteeeerike3 »

Long post incoming...

Does anyone have any experience with managing pitchers in youth baseball?

We're getting back into the swing of things for the spring season. There's 10 kids on the team, 2 of them can pitch well, about 4-5 pitch well enough to throw strikes enough to not walk runs in, and the others are works in progress.

Tournament formats are typically 2 games on saturday and teams are ranked based on those results (ranking by w-l then fewest runs given up in case of ties, which there always are so preventing runs gets you higher seeds) and a single elimination bracket is formed on Sunday where you typically have to win 3 games to win the tournament.

The rules are 8 innings max per tournament, and pitcher can't pitch more than 3 innings on Saturday and be allowed to pitch sunday. These are strict rules, but really don't play into planning much becasue:

Last season, our pitchers combined to throw an average of 25.1 pitches per inning. Top 2 pitchers both averaged 16.8 pitches per inning. Next 4 averaged 24, 25, 25, and 26. Everybody else is up in the 30s+.

So, even if you take the best pitchers, and let them go 3 innings, that's still 50+ pitches.

mlb has this link: https://www.mlb.com/pitch-smart/pitchin ... /ages-9-12

And, going by that, a pitcher should get 3 days rest after throwing 50+ pitches...which would make them unavailable for Sunday (as would any pitch total more than 20).

To me, these pitch counts seem very conservative though I have literally zero evidence to back this up and am very hesitant to come up with my own plan. And, there really doesn't seem to be much credible information available anywhere. It seems mechanics would be every bit as important at this age as any pitch count, but...again, no evidence anywhere to back that up.

This is the situation I'm in, trying to come up with a game plan on how to most effectively use the pitchers we have while also coaching them up.

Probably half the tournaments we play, the main goal is not to win the tournament but to get experience and let the kids play. In these, it's relatively easy to do. Let all the kids pitch. Pitchers 1 and 2 start both games on Saturday, pitch an inning, and then based on game situation you start going to Pitchers 3-10, limiting all to an inning, but using the better ones in closer situations.

Then on Sunday, rinse wash repeat but limit them to two innings so everyone still gets a shot.

The other half, where the goal is to win full stop, it gets much trickier and there are better teams involved. Saturday games are usually going to go 4 innings each. Possibly 5. Say 9 innings have to be pitched on Saturday. Then you have to pitch say 12-15 innings on Sunday. At an average of 25 pitches per inning, that's about 500-600 pitches. There's only 10 kids on the team, that's 60 pitches per kid.

I work with a coach that used to coach college baseball, super smart guy, he's of the opinion kids can throw closer to 100 pitches in a day and be fine with proper rest. I'm going to talk to him tonight about all this, but wanted to see if anyone on here had any thoughts?

Seems to me, if the goal is to win, the best approach is to stretch the pitchers out such that it's not dangerous to let them throw 80-100 pitches total 30/70, let's say. Then you limit them to 30 pitches on saturday, and let them throw 70 or so pitches as necessary to get through a game. The 3 starters on Sunday will, according to plan, have thrown about 20-30 pitches on Saturday. Then go on Sunday in the game they start until they fatigue, or hit whatever magical number keeps them under 80 or 100 or whatever for the weekend. Then you have 3 guys that won't start but will be ready to finish the game if needed. That sets it up like this:
Pitchers 1-3 are starters.
Pitchers 4-6 are relief.
All pitchers throw 20-30 pitches on Saturday and are ready to go Sunday, seeding is mostly irrelevant.
Pitcher 1 starts game 1. Throws, say, 60 pitches. That gets him into the 4th inning. Pitcher 4, 5, or 6 depending on situation (say 4 in this hypothetical) comes in and only has to get through an inning or two. That's 50 pitches.

Pitcher 2 starts game 2. Throws, say, 60 pitches. That gets him into the 4th inning. Pitcher 5 in this hypothetical comes in and only has to get through an inning or two which again is about 50 pitches.

Pitcher 3 starts game 3. But, here's where all [expletive] hits the fan. Due to a decreased effectiveness, his 60 pitches only gets him through about 2 innings. Now pitcher 6 has to pitch 2 or 3 innings. And, thats too much.

So, really we need a 7th pitcher. And we need everything to go exactly right...which they never do.

FML. I hate youth baseball :)

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Joe Shlabotnik
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Re: Youth Baseball Pitching

Post by Joe Shlabotnik »

What age? A 9 year old is different than a 14 year old.

AWvsCBsteeeerike3
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Re: Youth Baseball Pitching

Post by AWvsCBsteeeerike3 »

Joe Shlabotnik wrote:
January 24 22, 9:57 am
What age? A 9 year old is different than a 14 year old.
9 year olds.

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mikechamp
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Re: Youth Baseball Pitching

Post by mikechamp »

The struggle is real, @AWvsCBsteeeerike3. I'm 2 years ahead of you. Tournaments are where the worst coaching habits/arm health practices come alive. It takes a lot of planning to preserve the kids' best interests.

One thing I'll point out on the MLB Pitch Smart Guidelines is that those pitch counts don't take into consideration all the warmup pitches thrown in the bullpen. So while you might consider them conservative, they were devised by sports-focused doctors.

One other thing to consider: it might sound conspiratorial, but I would think MLB would have a vested interest in youth arm health. All these kids are potential employees. (Well, not all, but you know what I mean.)

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Re: Youth Baseball Pitching

Post by AWvsCBsteeeerike3 »

mikechamp wrote:
January 24 22, 10:51 am
The struggle is real, @AWvsCBsteeeerike3. I'm 2 years ahead of you. Tournaments are where the worst coaching habits/arm health practices come alive. It takes a lot of planning to preserve the kids' best interests.

One thing I'll point out on the MLB Pitch Smart Guidelines is that those pitch counts don't take into consideration all the warmup pitches thrown in the bullpen. So while you might consider them conservative, they were devised by sports-focused doctors.

One other thing to consider: it might sound conspiratorial, but I would think MLB would have a vested interest in youth arm health. All these kids are potential employees. (Well, not all, but you know what I mean.)
I trust that what MLB published has the players best interest at heart, certainly not conspiratorial or anything like that. I think it follows nicely with what Dr. James Andrews published in a study some time ago.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3435945/
Recommended Guidelines
Watch and respond to signs of fatigue (eg, decreased ball velocity, decreased accuracy, upright trunk during pitching, dropped elbow during pitching, or increased time between pitches). If a youth pitcher complains of fatigue or looks fatigued, rest is recommended.5

No overhead throwing of any kind for at least 2 to 3 months per year (4 months is preferred). No competitive baseball pitching for at least 4 months per year.

Do not pitch more than 100 innings in games in any calendar year.

Follow limits for pitch counts and days rest.

Avoid pitching on multiple teams with overlapping seasons.

Learn good throwing mechanics as soon as possible. The first steps should be (1) basic throwing, (2) fastball pitching, (3) changeup pitching.

Avoid using radar guns.

A pitcher should not also be a catcher for his team. The pitcher-catcher combination results in many throws and may increase the risk of injury.

If a pitcher complains of pain in his elbow or shoulder, discontinue pitching until evaluated by a sports medicine physician.

Inspire youth pitchers to have fun playing baseball and other sports. Participation and enjoyment of various physical activities will increase the youth’s athleticism and interest in sports.
That paper quoted this paper, but the analysis is not available for free to the public that I could find.

Would love to know what those 5 parameters were.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19633301/
Methods: In sum, 169 baseball pitchers (aged 9-18) were analyzed using a quantitative motion analysis system and a high-speed video while throwing fastballs. The correct performance of 5 common pitching parameters was compared with each pitcher's age, humeral internal rotation torque, elbow valgus load, and calculated pitching efficiency.

Results: Motion analysis correlated with video analysis for all 5 parameters (P < .05). Youth pitchers (aged 9-13) performing 3 or more parameters correctly showed lower humeral internal rotation torque, lower elbow valgus load, and higher pitching efficiency (P < .05).
So you can say a lot of pitches (concurrent teams, more than 80 pitches in a start, more than 100 innings per year, no time off, etc) lead to increased risk. The biggest risk, by far, is pitching fatigued. And, I'd guess, though who knows, is how much does fatigued pitching show up in a lot of those other increased pitch metrics I listed above?

Regardless, does the pattern hold true when the proper (whatever they are) biomechanics are followed? And, can conditioning, stretching, strengthening programs be use proactively to prevent damage from pitching? Seems both those would be affirmative answers, though I'm not sure if there are any studies along the lines of what Dr Andrews did to do so...but who knows.

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Re: Youth Baseball Pitching

Post by AWvsCBsteeeerike3 »

I'd also add. Like I mentioned, we have a coach that is a consultant to our team, he's really knowledgeable. I talked to him earlier - around October - about how many pitches I should have little AW throw and he said well it's just a function of conditioning. He can throw 100 pitches in a game if he works on getting up to 100 pitches in practice which takes time to do but basically start at 30 pitches then work up 5 pitches a week and he'll eventually get there. But, I started listening to podcasts and reading a bit and everyone and their brother seems to agree that 100 pitches for a 9 yo is way too much. At the same time, little AW and I go and throw once a week and he can easily maintain velocity and control (judging by the naked eye as I catch for him) well into the 80-90 pitch range, which is where we're at now. I'm also really comfortable with his mechanics. But, shoot people would have me hung from the highest tree for exposing him to that type of training which has me kind of discomforted.

Anyway, going to talk to this coach tonight and see what he has to say. Set up a conditioning/stretching/strengthening program for our entire team. Keep the mlb guidelines in mind, get a pocket radar gun to monitor velocity as well as other signs of fatigue and get kids out at the first sign of it. Try to limit kids to no more than 20 pitches on Saturday. And then no more than 50 pitches on Sunday unless they get tired then get them out sooner.

Last thing I want to do is get kids hurt. At the same time, trying to follow those guidelines is very difficult in usssa tournaments where you have to play 5 games in 2 days and have only 7 guys that can throw strikes. So, we need more pitchers is the main takeaway and we'll just have to encourage the guys that don't like to pitch to do it and coach them up.

Actually, the main takeaway is we need to get better at hitting and run rule teams in the 2nd inning or get run ruled in the 2nd inning to save arms. Tournament ball seems like a very not good setup.

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Re: Youth Baseball Pitching

Post by AWvsCBsteeeerike3 »

@mikechamp

Went and talked to the coach last night.

He's in a couple state hall of fames for high school baseball coaching. Coached at a couple universities. Has a couple masters in sports kinesiology and another one for something pretty similar. He's about 75 years old and moved here 5 years ago or so to help out one of his former players establish the academy we go to and he did so because he wanted to teach as many kids as possible with the time he has left and felt this was the best way to do it. The academy is extremely cheap relative to what others charge around here and if you don't have money, he'll just let you come on a scholarship, so no one is turned away. Awesome guy. Regardless, those are his credentials.

His approach is that you protect kids, within reason, by building endurance, using that endurance, and giving the proper rest. So, you bring a kid in on day 1, he throws 25 pitches max effort then 15 pitches 3/4 effort. 3 days (or more) rest. Day 2 is 30 pitches max effort - 17 pitches 3/4 effort. You build the endurance with the 3/4 pitches focusing on mechanics, essentially. Then 40-20. Etc. Get them up to 75 pitches max effort over a couple months. All while maintaining an emphasis on mechanics.

At that point, you can start to look into building strength/velocity. Regardless that is his approach.

Do that, and you don't have pitchers pitching fatigued because they've been conditioned and their muscles can handle it. Obviously, still monitor for fatigue and give the kid 4 days rest if that ever happens. But, the goal is to never let a pitcher pitch fatigued.

Which, looking at the dr andrews study, you can pretty easily see that pitching fatigued is the biggest issue, by a long shot. While he had issues with the study, he did agree that fatigue is a big issue and likely was the cause of all the other problems (eg, pitching for multiple teams, throwing 80+ pitches, etc). But, if you can condition an arm to throw 75 pitches, which can be done at this age according to him, they should be able to safely throw close to that or just under in game situations. And, then they'd need rest.

So, I started asking him about the mlb pitch safe guidelines. And, it was pretty much the same answer. Protect kids by building endurance so they can do it.

Then he went off on a tangent about how another big issue is, say, kids are building endurance and throw 60 pitches max effort then 20 pitches 3/4 effort one day. Then go to school the next day and throw 50 dodge balls full effort or 50 passes at football practice or 30 throws from the outfied or whatever, they're not getting the rest they need. So, it takes careful monitoring and coordination with parents and kids to help them not overuse their arm while building endurance.

But, once they have it, they can use it over multiple days in a tournament. So, day 1 throw 20 pitches. Day 2 throw 50 pitches. Rest days 3-5, and be good on Day 6. That also falls in line with the mlb pitch smart guidelines and I think what I'm going to do. Then the issue is, well, we need a minimum of 8 pitchers if not more to prevent overuse of arms in a 5 game tournament. So, we have some work to do. But, getting kids conditioned should, in theory, help them get better at pitching. We'll see.

All that to say, I'm pretty comfortable with the approach. I think it makes the most sense, all things considered.

In an ideal world, we'd just have kids throw every 5 days or so, rest in between and do nothing, but that's obviously impossible for a plethora of reasons.

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Re: Youth Baseball Pitching

Post by mikechamp »

Good info, @AWvsCBsteeeerike3. Thanks for sharing.

Did you ask him about warmup tosses in the bullpen? As in, does he count those in any way?

I know it's a completely different level, but the Cards count every pitch thrown by their pitchers, whether it's a gameday for that starter or not. I don't know what their number is, and it probably varies by pitcher. I know they factor in stressful pitches in game, as well as pitches thrown between brief rest periods (meaning, a 25-pitch inning is looked at differently than a 10-pitch inning followed by a 15-pitch inning). That's all beyond 9 year-old and 11 year-old baseball, but I keep it in mind because if they are applying those techniques to employees, then I figure I should at least be taking the same level of care with my own son and his friends.

I'll add one other thing, since we're sharing our info and experiences. We stopped practices/scrimmage games in mid-October. We aren't going to resume until early March. Many of the boys have other sports that they play, but we also wanted to have them not do baseball activities for a few months. When we resume, it will be at least twice a week for 4 months. I'm going to be interested to see how that works compared to last year when we started slow in mid-January and ramped up as we approached the season in April.

I was gifted "The Complete Guide to Pitching" by Derek Johnson, MLB pitching coach. I really need to get to reading that in advance of this season. I'll let you know if it varies from what your guy is advising.

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Re: Youth Baseball Pitching

Post by AWvsCBsteeeerike3 »

I didn't talk to him specifically about that, but it's a good question and I will next time we talk.

My thoughts, because I had an oh [expletive] moment that warm up pitches are really just the same thing we're doing in the program, are as follows:
Get bands to shorten the warm up period.
Don't throw 100% in warm ups before the game.
Only throw 1-2 'real' warm up pitches before an inning or before going out, do the rest as a progression up from 3/4 effort to full effort.
Don't throw max effort, as a position player, unless necessary.

I think about all this and think, [expletive], there were times last year where we probably let kids throw hundreds of throws. Maybe not all full effort, but certainly a fair chunk, between warm ups, drills, pitching, and as position players.

I talked to the coach about taking time off, and he was adamant that it was bad. Not taking time off from baseball, but taking time off and either not maintaining endurance (by throwing) or not allowing proper time to rebuild endurance (eg, if you could throw 75 pitches full effort in October, by March you have lost most of that and need to start slowly again). That's his thoughts, so take it fwiw. But, again, his ideology is endurance comes from throwing, endurance prevents fatigue/protects against injury, rest is required after throwing.

So, can a guy go out, without throwing for 4 months, and adhere to the mlb pitch smart guidelines safely (eg, throw say 65 max effort pitches with nothing but a warmup after 4 months off)? I don't know. I think common sense would say no and why it's so important to remember everyone is different and needs to be monitored on an individual basis.

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Re: Youth Baseball Pitching

Post by mikechamp »

AWvsCBsteeeerike3 wrote:
January 25 22, 1:43 pm
So, can a guy go out, without throwing for 4 months, and adhere to the mlb pitch smart guidelines safely (eg, throw say 65 max effort pitches with nothing but a warmup after 4 months off)? I don't know. I think common sense would say no and why it's so important to remember everyone is different and needs to be monitored on an individual basis.
I would concur with you. When we resume, I'll be sure to not have them throwing at max effort at our practices because we'll be re-building arm strength. I'll also need to talk to each of them to see how much they'll have already been throwing in their yards with family members/friends.

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