5/23 GDT: Blue Jays(Berrios) vs Cardinals(Mikolas) 6:45 PM CT

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Big Amoco Sign
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Re: 5/23 GDT: Blue Jays(Berrios) vs Cardinals(Mikolas) 6:45 PM CT

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Joe Shlabotnik wrote:
May 24 22, 9:26 am
Because this isn't the post season. You can't manage only for today in May. You have to be thinking about things like getting young guys experience in high leverage situations so they'll be ready for the post season. You have to see what you've got with the young guns at some point.

That's if I was king of course. If you were Oli, you could manage every game like it was game 7 of the World Series and take your chances.
I agree with you. Managing like game 7 of WS every day is how you have zero relievers by August.

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dmarx114
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Re: 5/23 GDT: Blue Jays(Berrios) vs Cardinals(Mikolas) 6:45 PM CT

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Big Amoco Sign wrote:
May 24 22, 10:01 am
dmarx114 wrote:
May 24 22, 9:20 am
So Oli says in the post game interview that Helsley can only go 1 inning last night. But if he can only get "3 outs" (which is kind of silly since you can get 3 outs on like 5 pitches or 30 pitches), then why not have the first of these 3 outs come with guys on base in the 7th? And then Pallante can come in with 2 outs in the 8th if need be (which could be a no one on base situation).
Entering a game, sitting, then getting back up again, is something that's harder on gas throwing relievers more than any other kind. Especially one who throws tons of pitches to get outs.

Case in point: Jordan Hicks's career.
"Harder" as in more injury prone? Or "harder" as in less effective?

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Re: 5/23 GDT: Blue Jays(Berrios) vs Cardinals(Mikolas) 6:45 PM CT

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Big Amoco Sign wrote:
May 24 22, 10:05 am
Joe Shlabotnik wrote:
May 24 22, 9:26 am
Because this isn't the post season. You can't manage only for today in May. You have to be thinking about things like getting young guys experience in high leverage situations so they'll be ready for the post season. You have to see what you've got with the young guns at some point.

That's if I was king of course. If you were Oli, you could manage every game like it was game 7 of the World Series and take your chances.
I agree with you. Managing like game 7 of WS every day is how you have zero relievers by August.
I certainly agree as well. And if Helsley and Gio need a day off today, that's fine.

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Re: 5/23 GDT: Blue Jays(Berrios) vs Cardinals(Mikolas) 6:45 PM CT

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MrCrowesGarden wrote:
May 24 22, 8:56 am
Goldschmidt is up to 8th on odds for NL MVP at +2500. Arenado is 3rd, behind Machado and Mookie.
Machado has 3.5 fWAR already. Insane. I think it's his to lose.

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Re: 5/23 GDT: Blue Jays(Berrios) vs Cardinals(Mikolas) 6:45 PM CT

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dmarx114 wrote:
May 24 22, 10:06 am
"Harder" as in more injury prone? Or "harder" as in less effective?
I don't think injury prone, but it leads to needing more time off between appearances. At least that's how interpreted what I've read about Brewers' pen management last year and their hard throwers. And the between the lines stuff with Jordan Hicks and Alex Reyes and not being conditioned for haphazard unpredictable usage and expected to throw 100+.

*Not an expert on this though

I suspect Mo has more to do with Helsley usage than you lead on. He had stress action in his elbow just like Hicks.

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Re: 5/23 GDT: Blue Jays(Berrios) vs Cardinals(Mikolas) 6:45 PM CT

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Big Amoco Sign wrote:
May 24 22, 10:11 am
dmarx114 wrote:
May 24 22, 10:06 am
"Harder" as in more injury prone? Or "harder" as in less effective?
I don't think injury prone, but it leads to needing more time off between appearances. At least that's how interpreted what I've read about Brewers' pen management last year and their hard throwers. And the between the lines stuff with Jordan Hicks and Alex Reyes and not being conditioned for haphazard unpredictable usage and expected to throw 100+.

*Not an expert on this though

I suspect Mo has more to do with Helsley usage than you lead on.
I would need to see stats that support this hypothesis. Cause if Helsley throws a 5 pitch inning, I think he will be just fine pitching the next inning (up to a certain amount of pitches), without needing extra time off between appearances as a result to sitting down for 15 minutes or so.

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Re: 5/23 GDT: Blue Jays(Berrios) vs Cardinals(Mikolas) 6:45 PM CT

Post by dmarx114 »

Big Amoco Sign wrote:
May 24 22, 10:11 am
dmarx114 wrote:
May 24 22, 10:06 am
"Harder" as in more injury prone? Or "harder" as in less effective?
I don't think injury prone, but it leads to needing more time off between appearances. At least that's how interpreted what I've read about Brewers' pen management last year and their hard throwers. And the between the lines stuff with Jordan Hicks and Alex Reyes and not being conditioned for haphazard unpredictable usage and expected to throw 100+.

*Not an expert on this though

I suspect Mo has more to do with Helsley usage than you lead on. He had stress action in his elbow just like Hicks.
Even if Helsley was only available for 1 out last night, I would have preferred it to come in the 7th against Springer with the bases loaded.

But we know he was available for 3 outs.

I don't follow the Mo comment. Helsley was obviously available last night. We are just debating when he should have been used. Also, I haven't heard Oli say anything about trying to manage Helsley's innings.

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Re: 5/23 GDT: Blue Jays(Berrios) vs Cardinals(Mikolas) 6:45 PM CT

Post by Joe Shlabotnik »

dmarx114 wrote:
May 24 22, 9:59 am
Joe Shlabotnik wrote:
May 24 22, 9:26 am
dmarx114 wrote:
May 24 22, 9:20 am
So Oli says in the post game interview that Helsley can only go 1 inning last night. But if he can only get "3 outs" (which is kind of silly since you can get 3 outs on like 5 pitches or 30 pitches), then why not have the first of these 3 outs come with guys on base in the 7th? And then Pallante can come in with 2 outs in the 8th if need be (which could be a no one on base situation).
Because this isn't the post season. You can't manage only for today in May. You have to be thinking about things like getting young guys experience in high leverage situations so they'll be ready for the post season. You have to see what you've got with the young guns at some point.

That's if I was king of course. If you were Oli, you could manage every game like it was game 7 of the World Series and take your chances.
I am a little confused. Your first sentence seems to imply that you want Helsley and Gio pitching the high leverage spots in the post season. But then you suggest that Oli should give high leverage spots to young pitchers so that they can get used to pitching in high leverage spots in the post season.

Regardless, Oli himself didn't make mention of going to Pallante to get him "experience" in high leverage spots. He was the option because he could go multiple innings, which of course is strange since we no longer have the pitcher hitting in the NL.

Bottom line....Oli is overthinking it. If Helsley is available, use him when we need him the most.
You are of course absolutely correct.

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Re: 5/23 GDT: Blue Jays(Berrios) vs Cardinals(Mikolas) 6:45 PM CT

Post by dmarx114 »

dmarx114 wrote:
May 23 22, 8:28 pm
Big Amoco Sign wrote:
May 23 22, 8:24 pm
dmarx114 wrote:
May 23 22, 8:23 pm
Joe Shlabotnik wrote:
May 23 22, 8:21 pm
@dmarx114 If you burned Helsley in the 7th, who you putting on the bump here?
Burned? He can’t pitch more than one batter?

He could have pitched 7th and 8th and Gio for the 9th.

Mikolas should have been lifted after the walk.
Then who pitches tomorrow in a one run game? You want reliever facing 4 batters?

It takes two batters minimum to warm a pitcher up.

Everything is video game convenience in this reality.
Tomorrow? Who the [expletive] cares about tomorrow?

Manage tonight. Tomorrow could be 10-2. Geez, this is like a bad dream of larussa and matheny.
Like I said last night, worry about the game in hand.

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Re: 5/23 GDT: Blue Jays(Berrios) vs Cardinals(Mikolas) 6:45 PM CT

Post by Big Amoco Sign »

dmarx114 wrote:
May 24 22, 8:07 pm
dmarx114 wrote:
May 23 22, 8:28 pm
Big Amoco Sign wrote:
May 23 22, 8:24 pm
dmarx114 wrote:
May 23 22, 8:23 pm
Joe Shlabotnik wrote:
May 23 22, 8:21 pm
@dmarx114 If you burned Helsley in the 7th, who you putting on the bump here?
Burned? He can’t pitch more than one batter?

He could have pitched 7th and 8th and Gio for the 9th.

Mikolas should have been lifted after the walk.
Then who pitches tomorrow in a one run game? You want reliever facing 4 batters?

It takes two batters minimum to warm a pitcher up.

Everything is video game convenience in this reality.
Tomorrow? Who the [expletive] cares about tomorrow?

Manage tonight. Tomorrow could be 10-2. Geez, this is like a bad dream of larussa and matheny.
Like I said last night, worry about the game in hand.
The point wasn't the video game reality or whatever happened today. Or the convenience/hindsight of your posts even.

It's leverage and taxing. And personnel. Helsley throws 100mph and likely needs 30 pitches to get 4 outs (and likely goes 5 batters to do so). You would tax the pen and we go from two reliable arms to one.

There's a reason Pallante was used over Helsley for the out. Do you even ask why? Because 100mph guy sitting between dialing up to 100mph is bad. On top of reliever stats after they go out for another inning from sitting.

Francona Fireman tactic isn't used in May. Francona is leaving his starters in as long as possible. So is Oli. It's May. Marathon, not race.

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