MLB to rewrite record books with Negro League integration

[heyzeus]

Integrating their statistics like this is almost a form of erasure in itself. Provides no context to their struggles or the Negro Leagues. Or the fact that they were excluded for no good reason.

I don't see how it's erasure to present the stats together. The story of the Negro Leagues, and how racism kept Black players excluded from MLB for the first 70ish years of baseball, doesn't just go away because the stats are presented together. Anyone that knows a shred of baseball history, or even American history, knows what segregation was.

[ghostrunner]

I mean ultimately this is a decision up to the league being affected, which has decided it's fair to incorporate those stats. Nobody's forcing this on them. The statistics aren't one to one, but that's cleary true of modern players raised to play professional baseball vs part-time salesmen, farmers, and tradesmen who first held a baseball in their teens and twenties.

Here's a random one - a guy named George Bradley is ranked 17th all-time in single season ERA, he went 45-19 for the St Louis Brown Stockings with an ERA of 1.23. He was the only pitcher on the team and they played a total of 64 games, against a total of 7 other teams. That's in the record books.

[WAR God]

Because it makes it look like the Negro leagues players played in the same league. And they didn’t.

[Popeye_Card]

Because it makes it look like the Negro leagues players played in the same league. And they didn’t.

I feel like you are getting the point while not getting the point.

[WAR God]

I get “the point.” We just disagree about it.

[sighyoung]

So there are a few things, and I don’t mean these to be polemical at all—they’re just my thoughts, and I certainly appreciate what people are saying here.

The approach to archival collection and research about the Negro League is standard in archival collection and description these days, where institutions are trying to take appropriate steps to collect, preserve, and make accessible historical records and artifacts of communities institutions that were often ignored, and 2) describe them fairly and accurately and respectfully (even when you have material, you can mis-describe it in ways that reflect bias, misinterpret and distort material, or make it difficult to find on subsequent searches).

There seem to be two fundamental assumptions from which the others follow: 1) Negro League players and teams merit historical research, statistical collection, interpretation, and public display of their statistics and other documents like any other league, with a commitment to further archival research going forward, and 2) the Negro Leagues were, indeed major leagues, and should have their statistics displayed as such rather than be accompanied by a permanent qualifier or asterisk, unlike other league statistics.

I don't think there's any disagreement about #1 here, or at least there shouldn't be: this is long merited.

So the issue is about #2: the status of the Negro League as a major league, but also the appropriate display of Negro League stats, as well as the distribution curve of performance due to Negro League size (and quality of performance given general population size), statistical availability, etc.

Which merits its own post because it's really complicated, but (to me) interesting, as well.

[ghostrunner]

I don't care about it, but if one is looking for direct precedent, the NFL incorporates AFL records in their stats and record books even though they didn't merge and compete until 6 years after the AFL was created.

[CardsofSTL]

Because it makes it look like the Negro leagues players played in the same league. And they didn’t.

MLB is comprised of more than one league.

[Popeye_Card]

I don't care about it, but if one is looking for direct precedent, the NFL incorporates AFL records in their stats and record books even though they didn't merge and compete until 6 years after the AFL was created.

Yeah, you could view this as a very late recognition that the Negro Leagues were basically absorbed into MLB. Not the teams themselves, but many of the players with the teams/league dissolving. MLB recognizes stats from the National and American Leagues prior to their merger into MLB in 1903, even though those stats were not compiled "in MLB".

[GeddyWrox]

I just asked Chat GPT:

At the time the negro baseball league was segregated from MLB but they played barnstorming games together, were the negro league players considered to be as talented as white players?

ChatGPT Replied:

Yes, many players and observers considered Negro League players to be as talented, if not more talented, than their counterparts in Major League Baseball (MLB). Despite the segregation that kept them out of the MLB, Negro League players often demonstrated their skills and competitiveness through barnstorming games against white teams, including those composed of MLB players.

Several key points illustrate this:

1) Competitive Barnstorming Games: During these barnstorming tours, Negro League teams frequently played against MLB teams and often won, showcasing their talent and challenging any notions of inferiority. These games were usually highly competitive, further emphasizing the comparable skill levels.

2) Star Players: Many Negro League players who eventually joined MLB after the color barrier was broken by Jackie Robinson in 1947 performed exceptionally well. Players like Satchel Paige, Josh Gibson, and Cool Papa Bell were legends in their own right and widely regarded as some of the best to ever play the game.

3) Major League Interest: MLB teams and scouts were aware of the talent in the Negro Leagues. Some MLB players even advocated for integration after witnessing the skills of their black counterparts during barnstorming tours.

4) Recognition by MLB Players: Many MLB players and managers acknowledged the high level of talent in the Negro Leagues. Babe Ruth, for instance, often spoke highly of the players he faced in these exhibition games.

5) Integration and Performance: After integration began, the successful transition of Negro League stars into MLB, with many becoming all-stars and Hall of Famers, provided clear evidence of their equivalent or superior talent levels. Jackie Robinson, Larry Doby, and Roy Campanella, among others, demonstrated that Negro League players could excel in the MLB.

In summary, the skill and talent of Negro League players were well-recognized through their performances in barnstorming games, the testimonies of MLB players, and the successful careers of many who transitioned to MLB after integration.