cops

Political and religious discussions go here. Tread lightly.
Post Reply
User avatar
lukethedrifter
darjeeling sipping elite
Posts: 37361
Joined: October 17 06, 11:19 am
Location: Huis Clos

Re: cops

Post by lukethedrifter »

Look, i appreciate the good things cops do. I see it up close. I work next to “your dad”. I have seen incredible patience from officers. But the problem is that the nice lemonade buying cop could also be the guy who forearms a dude because he’s too mouthy or he could be the guy who’s not going snitch on his partner for the illegal search. It’s a systemic problem and I would argue it hurts (in a way) the individual officer as well though clearly not as much as the sitting in jail for 35 years bc the cops “liked him for it.”
User avatar
33anda3rd
Replies Authoritatively
Posts: 8325
Joined: April 7 13, 9:45 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: cops

Post by 33anda3rd »

Wait.

Luke.

Are you saying?

That a policeman who does something nice?

In one community?

Could go choke a man to death in cold blood in another?

It's almost like you're saying people are not only defined by themselves at their best.
User avatar
wart57
just can't quit you.
Posts: 24946
Joined: April 18 06, 4:33 pm
Location: Lost

Re: cops

Post by wart57 »

33anda3rd wrote:Wait.

Luke.

Are you saying?

That a policeman who does something nice?

In one community?

Could go choke a man to death in cold blood in another?

It's almost like you're saying people are not only defined by themselves at their best.
And you have been saying all along that police can ONLY be defined by what the worst of them do.

I have been saying all along - there are bad cops, but don't hate all cops because of how the worst of them act. The same way we shouldn't define Christians by the actions of the worst of them, or Muslims by the acts of the worst of them, or a minority group by the actions of the worst.
It's almost like I am saying hate is bad.
User avatar
lukethedrifter
darjeeling sipping elite
Posts: 37361
Joined: October 17 06, 11:19 am
Location: Huis Clos

Re: cops

Post by lukethedrifter »

wart57 wrote:
33anda3rd wrote:Wait.

Luke.

Are you saying?

That a policeman who does something nice?

In one community?

Could go choke a man to death in cold blood in another?

It's almost like you're saying people are not only defined by themselves at their best.
And you have been saying all along that police can ONLY be defined by what the worst of them do.

I have been saying all along - there are bad cops, but don't hate all cops because of how the worst of them act. The same way we shouldn't define Christians by the actions of the worst of them, or Muslims by the acts of the worst of them, or a minority group by the actions of the worst.
It's almost like I am saying hate is bad.
I feel like you’re intentionally missing the point that policing in America has a systemic civil rights abuse/racism/omerta problem
lukethedrifter wrote:
Look, i appreciate the good things cops do. I see it up close. I work next to “your dad”. I have seen incredible patience from officers. But the problem is that the nice lemonade buying cop could also be the guy who forearms a dude because he’s too mouthy or he could be the guy who’s not going snitch on his partner for the illegal search. It’s a systemic problem and I would argue it hurts (in a way) the individual officer as well though clearly not as much as the sitting in jail for 35 years bc the cops “liked him for it.”
Additionally there’s a real discussion that needs to be had about what we are asking cops to do and why.
And guns. The police orgs- the white one’s anyway- are nearly unanimous in their support of Trump & co, the gun lobby, NRA
User avatar
wart57
just can't quit you.
Posts: 24946
Joined: April 18 06, 4:33 pm
Location: Lost

Re: cops

Post by wart57 »

lukethedrifter wrote:
wart57 wrote:
33anda3rd wrote:Wait.

Luke.

Are you saying?

That a policeman who does something nice?

In one community?

Could go choke a man to death in cold blood in another?

It's almost like you're saying people are not only defined by themselves at their best.
And you have been saying all along that police can ONLY be defined by what the worst of them do.

I have been saying all along - there are bad cops, but don't hate all cops because of how the worst of them act. The same way we shouldn't define Christians by the actions of the worst of them, or Muslims by the acts of the worst of them, or a minority group by the actions of the worst.
It's almost like I am saying hate is bad.
I feel like you’re intentionally missing the point that policing in America has a systemic civil rights abuse/racism/omerta problem
lukethedrifter wrote:
Look, i appreciate the good things cops do. I see it up close. I work next to “your dad”. I have seen incredible patience from officers. But the problem is that the nice lemonade buying cop could also be the guy who forearms a dude because he’s too mouthy or he could be the guy who’s not going snitch on his partner for the illegal search. It’s a systemic problem and I would argue it hurts (in a way) the individual officer as well though clearly not as much as the sitting in jail for 35 years bc the cops “liked him for it.”
Additionally there’s a real discussion that needs to be had about what we are asking cops to do and why.
And guns. The police orgs- the white one’s anyway- are nearly unanimous in their support of Trump & co, the gun lobby, NRA
And I think most of you are not even bothering to read anything I am writing. I have never once said we don't need to look at policing and make it better. I have never denied some police departments have committed atrocities against African American communities. But since I don't blindly hate all cops, I must therefore blindly support all cops?

I try hard not to let emotions run my life or influence my opinions too much. I try to look at things with a logical eye, that is all I am asking. For every one case of someone being railroaded and hurt by police, how many thousand's of cases are there where the cops did what they are supposed to do and put away a guilty person. I would love to reach a day where nobody is ever prosecuted for something they didn't do - because yes, it hurts all of us when that happens. I am just not going to hate all police for the actions of a few.

Police need to be better. Full Stop. Police need to be better. Full Stop. There should be no excuses given to bad cops who do bad things. FULL STOP. Cops who do bad things need to be punished. FULL STOP.
Cops who cover up for other cops are bad cops and need to be punished. FULL STOP.
Cops who do their jobs the right way don't need to be hated and disrespected because of the actions of bad cops.

When you say Cops are corrupt, that means ALL cops - that is the way the English language works.
Arthur Dent
Hall Of Famer
Posts: 11514
Joined: April 25 06, 6:43 pm
Location: Austin

Re: cops

Post by Arthur Dent »

wart57 wrote:And I think most of you are not even bothering to read anything I am writing. I have never once said we don't need to look at policing and make it better. I have never denied some police departments have committed atrocities against African American communities. But since I don't blindly hate all cops, I must therefore blindly support all cops?

I try hard not to let emotions run my life or influence my opinions too much. I try to look at things with a logical eye, that is all I am asking. For every one case of someone being railroaded and hurt by police, how many thousand's of cases are there where the cops did what they are supposed to do and put away a guilty person. I would love to reach a day where nobody is ever prosecuted for something they didn't do - because yes, it hurts all of us when that happens. I am just not going to hate all police for the actions of a few.

Police need to be better. Full Stop. Police need to be better. Full Stop. There should be no excuses given to bad cops who do bad things. FULL STOP. Cops who do bad things need to be punished. FULL STOP.
Cops who cover up for other cops are bad cops and need to be punished. FULL STOP.
Cops who do their jobs the right way don't need to be hated and disrespected because of the actions of bad cops.

When you say Cops are corrupt, that means ALL cops - that is the way the English language works.
I think part of the problem here may be that the idea of something being a systematic problem doesn't seem to land for you as a concept. As I read your posts on this topic, it seems to me that the only framework that makes sense to you is one of good and bad individuals. That a systematic problem would just be a situation where a lot of the individuals are bad.

Conceding the fact that the other side of this also tends to frame the problem as about evil individuals, maybe it would be helpful for all to focus on the systematic issues -- the way policing as an institution is designed to produce abuses and how individual police office behavior is produced by the institutions they are a part of at least as much as whether they personally have a good soul.
User avatar
lukethedrifter
darjeeling sipping elite
Posts: 37361
Joined: October 17 06, 11:19 am
Location: Huis Clos

Re: cops

Post by lukethedrifter »

Arthur Dent wrote:
wart57 wrote:And I think most of you are not even bothering to read anything I am writing. I have never once said we don't need to look at policing and make it better. I have never denied some police departments have committed atrocities against African American communities. But since I don't blindly hate all cops, I must therefore blindly support all cops?

I try hard not to let emotions run my life or influence my opinions too much. I try to look at things with a logical eye, that is all I am asking. For every one case of someone being railroaded and hurt by police, how many thousand's of cases are there where the cops did what they are supposed to do and put away a guilty person. I would love to reach a day where nobody is ever prosecuted for something they didn't do - because yes, it hurts all of us when that happens. I am just not going to hate all police for the actions of a few.

Police need to be better. Full Stop. Police need to be better. Full Stop. There should be no excuses given to bad cops who do bad things. FULL STOP. Cops who do bad things need to be punished. FULL STOP.
Cops who cover up for other cops are bad cops and need to be punished. FULL STOP.
Cops who do their jobs the right way don't need to be hated and disrespected because of the actions of bad cops.

When you say Cops are corrupt, that means ALL cops - that is the way the English language works.
I think part of the problem here may be that the idea of something being a systematic problem doesn't seem to land for you as a concept. As I read your posts on this topic, it seems to me that the only framework that makes sense to you is one of good and bad individuals. That a systematic problem would just be a situation where a lot of the individuals are bad.

Conceding the fact that the other side of this also tends to frame the problem as about evil individuals, maybe it would be helpful for all to focus on the systematic issues -- the way policing as an institution is designed to produce abuses and how individual police office behavior is produced by the institutions they are a part of at least as much as whether they personally have a good soul.
David Simon’s comment about how he viewed The Wire is apropos

.... has said that despite its presentation as a crime drama, the show is "really about the American city, and about how we live together. It's about how institutions have an effect on individuals, and how... whether you're a cop, a longshoreman, a drug dealer, a politician, a judge [or] lawyer, you are ultimately compromised and must contend with whatever institution you've committed to."
User avatar
wart57
just can't quit you.
Posts: 24946
Joined: April 18 06, 4:33 pm
Location: Lost

Re: cops

Post by wart57 »

Arthur Dent wrote:
wart57 wrote:And I think most of you are not even bothering to read anything I am writing. I have never once said we don't need to look at policing and make it better. I have never denied some police departments have committed atrocities against African American communities. But since I don't blindly hate all cops, I must therefore blindly support all cops?

I try hard not to let emotions run my life or influence my opinions too much. I try to look at things with a logical eye, that is all I am asking. For every one case of someone being railroaded and hurt by police, how many thousand's of cases are there where the cops did what they are supposed to do and put away a guilty person. I would love to reach a day where nobody is ever prosecuted for something they didn't do - because yes, it hurts all of us when that happens. I am just not going to hate all police for the actions of a few.

Police need to be better. Full Stop. Police need to be better. Full Stop. There should be no excuses given to bad cops who do bad things. FULL STOP. Cops who do bad things need to be punished. FULL STOP.
Cops who cover up for other cops are bad cops and need to be punished. FULL STOP.
Cops who do their jobs the right way don't need to be hated and disrespected because of the actions of bad cops.

When you say Cops are corrupt, that means ALL cops - that is the way the English language works.
I think part of the problem here may be that the idea of something being a systematic problem doesn't seem to land for you as a concept. As I read your posts on this topic, it seems to me that the only framework that makes sense to you is one of good and bad individuals. That a systematic problem would just be a situation where a lot of the individuals are bad.

Conceding the fact that the other side of this also tends to frame the problem as about evil individuals, maybe it would be helpful for all to focus on the systematic issues -- the way policing as an institution is designed to produce abuses and how individual police office behavior is produced by the institutions they are a part of at least as much as whether they personally have a good soul.
So what is the solution, if policing as an institution is about abusing the public, how do we fix it? How do we protect good people and get bad people off the street?
User avatar
Jocephus
99% conan clips
Posts: 56367
Joined: April 18 06, 5:14 pm

Re: cops

Post by Jocephus »

User avatar
InvincibleCakeEater
GRB's obsessive compulsive baseball poster
Posts: 25479
Joined: October 12 07, 12:28 pm
Location: Raptured

Re: cops

Post by InvincibleCakeEater »

Post Reply