If it was just pharmaceutical companies, I would understand the hesitation. But like you said it's practically the entire establishment. I also, initially, understood concerns about side effects. In reality, most of them (not all) take anything without analyzing the side effects.ghostrunner wrote: ↑September 22 21, 7:52 amThis is really it for me. It's not just pharmaceutical companies and the FDA/CDC. It's county and state health departments. City, county and state governments. Medical associations. Foreign health departments. Foreign governments. Communist, socialist, and capitalist governments. It's also not like anyone in these organizations or the wealthy are avoiding the vaccine. In fact they've been cutting in line to get it. The idea that this is about control or whatever is just ludicrous.BrntOrngStud wrote: ↑September 21 21, 9:53 pmAs a physician, I encourage my patients to learn more about their diagnosis or a particular procedure I'm performing on them but I also make sure they understand that their independent research does not equate to my education/experience.
This is what I don't understand about the anti-vaxxer crowd. All of them feel instantly qualified to analyze and arrive that their own scientifically unsound conclusions. As if all the virologists, epidemiologists, etc. do this as a part-time hobby and just happened to settle on the same overwhelming consensus across the globe. These people are dying from their own arrogance and willful ignorance. It's only their children who I genuinely feel bad for.
Coronavirus
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Re: Coronavirus
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Re: Coronavirus
As someone that has seen so many preventable deaths in the last 6 months, it becomes mentally exhausting. I started feeling like a failure and had to modify my reasoning so that I could continue doing my job. At the current time, people who smoke and people with complications from obesity are not occupying ICU beds for weeks at a time. A classmate of mine from med school runs a private practice and she was not able to admit her emergency cases because the ICU beds were full with 80% of the patients being there for COVID and about 90% were unvaccinated.cardinalkarp wrote: ↑September 22 21, 8:21 amThis is so infuriating to hear FROM A DOCTOR. Do you feel that way for people who smoke, have complications from obesity, and other illnesses that are based on ones personal choices (for the most part).BrntOrngStud wrote: ↑September 21 21, 9:53 pmAs a physician, I encourage my patients to learn more about their diagnosis or a particular procedure I'm performing on them but I also make sure they understand that their independent research does not equate to my education/experience.
This is what I don't understand about the anti-vaxxer crowd. All of them feel instantly qualified to analyze and arrive that their own scientifically unsound conclusions. As if all the virologists, epidemiologists, etc. do this as a part-time hobby and just happened to settle on the same overwhelming consensus across the globe. These people are dying from their own arrogance and willful ignorance. It's only their children who I genuinely feel bad for.
BTW, not all people hesitant to get this vaccine are Facebook sleuths and “part time virologists and epidemiologists”. We listen to NUMEROUS actual virologists and epidemiologists who don’t happen to agree w/ the official narrative, and guess what, they have predicted much of what we’re seeing today as opposed to our wonderful CDC & FDA.
May I ask what kind of doctor you are, and if you’re not a
virologist or epidemiologist maybe I suggest you step outside of your own bubble and listen to the people in those fields that don’t agree with what’s happening to see if maybe they might just be making sense.
I'm an anesthesiologist and have consulted many credible sources.
I subscribe to the principle of "go the professional expert for X service". If you believe that prayers and God will heal your COVID-19, then why are you going to the hospital? The experts in prayers and God are at your local church or synagogue. If you think medical science is the solution, then the hospital is the right place. If you need financial advice, why are you asking your broke uncle? Or a broke doc like me? I've had patients ask me what drug companies they should invest in. Go to Goldman Sachs or another investment bank or just buy index funds. A better example would be everyone loves to question Shildt for managerial decisions ( I am guilty too!) but at the end of the day, Shildt has decades of experience mangaging a ballclub and my knowledge is NOT equal to his experience.
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Re: Coronavirus
Discussion by one of the docs I follow on youtube about the latest (?) release of CDC data wrt vaccine efficacy and delta specifically.
tl;dw: They looked at people coming into the ER and those that were hospitalized with 'covid like' symptoms (not sure what that is, but the examples given were pneumonia or respiratory issues). (A concept that never crossed my mind before, but actually kind of interesting.) These people were tested for covid obviously. Vaccines overall showed an efficacy somewhere in the mid 80% range. They go into more detail. It's less for those over 75 and more for those under 75. Moderna was the best. J&J was the worst.
tl;dw: They looked at people coming into the ER and those that were hospitalized with 'covid like' symptoms (not sure what that is, but the examples given were pneumonia or respiratory issues). (A concept that never crossed my mind before, but actually kind of interesting.) These people were tested for covid obviously. Vaccines overall showed an efficacy somewhere in the mid 80% range. They go into more detail. It's less for those over 75 and more for those under 75. Moderna was the best. J&J was the worst.
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Re: Coronavirus
Sure, it's sad. But, at least a lot of these people are putting their money where their mouth is, finally. If you don't trust the doctors, don't go to the doctors.
So many conspiracy theories/critical thinking exercises are abstract on an individual level (climate change, flat earth) or in the past (moon landing, JFK) making beliefs mostly irrelevant. The earth spins, gravity keeps you on it, CO2 continues to rise, there's an American flag on the moon, JFK is dead. Who cares.
But this, this is a real time, real world concept with at least a modicum of repercussions for beliefs. Personally, I don't really have an issue with unvaxxed people that care for themselves, weigh the risk/reward and find more risk on the vax side. I'd disagree, but we don't all have to be the same.
But, these people that are going out of their way to protect themselves from something for which they (broad brush stroke here) under estimate the risk and have taken an anti-establishment stance. Fine, stay anti-establishment and carry out your thought process on your own. Most will be fine. A select few won't. Which, yes, is sad. Though, at least they're not hypocritical in their beliefs.
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- Fat_Bulldog
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Re: Coronavirus
For those who wish to not be vaccinated, please don't clog up our hospitals when you get COIVD.
Some of us have health issues that we are unable to avoid and need medical care available when there is an emergency.
This is fair, right?
Some of us have health issues that we are unable to avoid and need medical care available when there is an emergency.
This is fair, right?
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Re: Coronavirus
No, it’s actually not IMO. But, you’re obviously completely entitled to your opinion as well.Fat_Bulldog wrote: ↑September 24 21, 9:00 amFor those who wish to not be vaccinated, please don't clog up our hospitals when you get COIVD.
Some of us have health issues that we are unable to avoid and need medical care available when there is an emergency.
This is fair, right?
People make decisions everyday that put their lives at risk (drunk driving, drug use, dangerous behavior, etc.”, should all of them be refused treatment to “not clog up our hospitals” as you so kindly put it since those reasons are obviously a burden to society.
I understand that you had a negative experience because of the availability of hospital beds in your area but you did see the recent numbers that HALF of the documented cases of COVID hospitalizations AREN’T even COVID related. Add in the fact that hospitals are incentivized to admit COVID patients and then you can actually start to see where the true problems lie. Yes, unvaccinated are taking up a larger portion of hospital beds when it comes to COVID, but there are other larger issues at play here that are causing problems. You can’t simply blame it on the unvaccinated, even though that’s the easiest thing to do.
- BottenFieldofDreams
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Re: Coronavirus
If there were so many drunk drivers in the ICU that some kid's great grandfather couldn't get in after a stroke, then yes. Yes, they should withhold beds.
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Re: Coronavirus
Haven't really kept up with the discussion the last few days but these are good anti-vax analogies, glad to see you're coming around Karp
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Re: Coronavirus
My question is more where do you want to draw the line so the almighty vaccinated can be treated.