Our financial system is crumbling this week.

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AdmiralKird
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Re: Our financial system is crumbling this week.

Post by AdmiralKird »

longhornbaseball wrote: The only way the Fed can affect the economy is by keeping interest rates low, which is supposed to increase borrowing in order stimulate consumption and investment. Unfortunately, we are in a balance sheet recession, and households are trying to delever, not take on additional debt. Businesses have increased their borrowing over the past few years, but once again, they won't invest until they are confident there will be consumers to buy their products. What we need is more fiscal stimulus in order to expedite the deleveraging process and strengthen household consumption. The best way to do this is through a full payroll tax holiday that instantly gives everyone working a 4% raise. We should also hire anyone who wants a job but is unable to find one. It shouldn't be hard to find them something, anything productive for them to do.
Your analysis is good but this proposed solution is, IMO, poor. A payroll tax holiday is nothing more than a regressive stimulus which helps the economy where it really needs it the least. The people who really want to spend and need to spend are those who cannot right now because they are dumping almost everything they have saved or earned into holding back the dam of debt. A payroll tax holiday will exponentially give most of the stimulus money towards the wealthy, who do not have the same pressing desire to consume as those who are only spending money on food, taxes, and bills. If you want those people to start consuming again you're going to have to unclog the gutter, not pour more water down the drain. Giving someone who earns $500K a $20,000 rebate and the person unemployed $0 is not going to fix the problem. Any country attempting trickle down economics in a globalized economy will be prone to failure since it is not a closed system.

People are also not rational. A partial tax deduction which equates to a raise is not the same as someone showing up to their door and handing them that same amount in cash. Whose more likely to spend money? The person with $100 cash-in-hand or the person expected to pay somewhere around $100 less taxes/'get a tax rebate' in six months?

This is my personal solution. Give every American who claims on their 1040 a personal exemption and dependent(s) a $2,000 check per personal deduction. Current credit debt is ~$13K, and normal levels say it should be around $9K? Average US household is 3.14 people? Delevering should end. Every household would have around $2,000 extra to use for consumption. Consuming Restarts. Economy restarts. Total cost would be around $610 billion, less than the last "stimulus," and far more effective.

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vinsanity
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Re: Our financial system is crumbling this week.

Post by vinsanity »

AdmiralKird wrote:This is my personal solution. Give every American who claims on their 1040 a personal exemption and dependent(s) a $2,000 check per personal deduction. Current credit debt is ~$13K, and normal levels say it should be around $9K? Average US household is 3.14 people? Delevering should end. Every household would have around $2,000 extra to use for consumption. Consuming Restarts. Economy restarts. Total cost would be around $610 billion, less than the last "stimulus," and far more effective.
Interesting proposition, one I particularly like as well. I don't think people would spend that entire $600B, but more than they would in a payroll holiday. It's also interesting concerning the president. People like to point out, most employed make more in their checks now than 2 years ago (aside from raises, just in taxes) but our president didn't send out a check with his name on it. It's almost like he's humble.

I think we're better served putting that $600B in to 'shovel ready' projects. The last stimulus was half tax cuts half infrastructure. I think something like the Cleveland/Cincy/Columbus high speed rail that was going to create a few hundred temporary jobs and I want to say a hundred permanent jobs would do more. It could attract business. $50-100 a month on a rail ticket to live in Columbus but be able to commute to Cleveland or Cincy expands consumer demand and eligible employees in all 3 cities.

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AdmiralKird
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Re: Our financial system is crumbling this week.

Post by AdmiralKird »

vinsanity wrote:
AdmiralKird wrote:This is my personal solution. Give every American who claims on their 1040 a personal exemption and dependent(s) a $2,000 check per personal deduction. Current credit debt is ~$13K, and normal levels say it should be around $9K? Average US household is 3.14 people? Delevering should end. Every household would have around $2,000 extra to use for consumption. Consuming Restarts. Economy restarts. Total cost would be around $610 billion, less than the last "stimulus," and far more effective.
Interesting proposition, one I particularly like as well. I don't think people would spend that entire $600B, but more than they would in a payroll holiday. It's also interesting concerning the president. People like to point out, most employed make more in their checks now than 2 years ago (aside from raises, just in taxes) but our president didn't send out a check with his name on it. It's almost like he's humble.

I think we're better served putting that $600B in to 'shovel ready' projects. The last stimulus was half tax cuts half infrastructure. I think something like the Cleveland/Cincy/Columbus high speed rail that was going to create a few hundred temporary jobs and I want to say a hundred permanent jobs would do more. It could attract business. $50-100 a month on a rail ticket to live in Columbus but be able to commute to Cleveland or Cincy expands consumer demand and eligible employees in all 3 cities.
Well, a significant portion of the ARRA is still being spent on infrastructure, so many of those who have gained these temporary jobs are still employed. If you travel from Springfield to Saint Louis down I-55, for instance, there is construction on all 53 miles outside of Saint Louis. So currently adding infrastructure provisions while those workers are still in the temporary jobs is just going to train more people to work in temporary jobs that will dry up after the project reaches completion.

The idea is to get consumption going again. I'm one of those that pays for food, taxes, and bills and that's really all. People in my position have expenditures they really could make but are foregoing. My car hasn't had power steering for over a year, the doors don't always lock when I press the button. My netbook has a bad hard drive and I can't use it. The buttons on my phone are erratic. My TV makes a loud whirling noise from bad ball bearings. I'm overdue for the dentist, optometrist, these are things people who don't have consumption money can't afford. If you want to talk infrastructure, personal infrastructure is falling apart.

And just to touch again on what I said earlier, you can't spend money on a payroll increase because that 4% that goes to those who are already are spending money is mostly just going to go into investment. And where are the best investments right now? South American & Asia: China, India, Brazil, Latin America. You give them that money and its not going to trickle down because American companies can't really make that much money with consumption log jammed; no one will buy their products. The best place for them to invest is going to be overseas, and that's only going to help those budding economies and make the wealthy who get the rebates more wealthy. You give a family of five that's just paying their debt $10,000 and the majority of that money is going to go towards delevering and needs/wants spending. They have a necessity and desire to spend, they just can't.

I know its not a pretty proposal, you're redistributing wealth, but you're placing it in the hands of where it can fundamentally fix the economy, and it would actually be better off for the rich since they'd eventually be able to make good off it from a functional economy.

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longhornbaseball
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Re: Our financial system is crumbling this week.

Post by longhornbaseball »

AdmiralKird wrote:Your analysis is good but this proposed solution is, IMO, poor. A payroll tax holiday is nothing more than a regressive stimulus which helps the economy where it really needs it the least. The people who really want to spend and need to spend are those who cannot right now because they are dumping almost everything they have saved or earned into holding back the dam of debt. A payroll tax holiday will exponentially give most of the stimulus money towards the wealthy, who do not have the same pressing desire to consume as those who are only spending money on food, taxes, and bills. If you want those people to start consuming again you're going to have to unclog the gutter, not pour more water down the drain. Giving someone who earns $500K a $20,000 rebate and the person unemployed $0 is not going to fix the problem. Any country attempting trickle down economics in a globalized economy will be prone to failure since it is not a closed system.
A person earning $500K doesn't pay 4.2% of their paycheck on payroll taxes. Payroll taxes are only collected on wage earners up to the first ~$107k of income. They are regressive. Usually you pay 6.2% for Social Social security and 1.45% Medicare, which is then matched by your employer, but last December, Congress reduced the SS rate to 4.2% for wage earners. Eliminating the payroll tax completely is the best, most effective (and most politically viable) way to specifically target those who need additional income. The middle class wage earners.
AdmiralKird wrote:People are also not rational. A partial tax deduction which equates to a raise is not the same as someone showing up to their door and handing them that same amount in cash. Whose more likely to spend money? The person with $100 cash-in-hand or the person expected to pay somewhere around $100 less taxes/'get a tax rebate' in six months?
The point isn't to immediately stimulate consumption spending, but to increase the capability of households to meet their debt servicing requirements. This should increase the rate of deleveraging and ultimately lead to increased consumption.
AdmiralKird wrote:This is my personal solution. Give every American who claims on their 1040 a personal exemption and dependent(s) a $2,000 check per personal deduction. Current credit debt is ~$13K, and normal levels say it should be around $9K? Average US household is 3.14 people? Delevering should end. Every household would have around $2,000 extra to use for consumption. Consuming Restarts. Economy restarts. Total cost would be around $610 billion, less than the last "stimulus," and far more effective.
Median household income in the US is around $50k, so elimination of the payroll tax will be roughly equivalent to writing everyone a check of $2,000. The difference between the two is political viability. Your plan is nice but there is no way it would pass the House. Getting tea party people to vote against a tax cut would be a political coup for Obama.

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Re: Our financial system is crumbling this week.

Post by TimeForGuinness »

How do you plan on reestablishing the taxes from the tax holiday after the economy has improved? The "temporary" Bush tax breaks haven't been allowed to expire, how would a tax holiday? In my mind, you're playing right into the hands of the Tea Party and their "Starve the Beast" philosophy.

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longhornbaseball
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Re: Our financial system is crumbling this week.

Post by longhornbaseball »

TimeForGuinness wrote:How do you plan on reestablishing the taxes from the tax holiday after the economy has improved?
I wouldn't, personally, but I'm a nut who thinks we don't need FICA taxes to fund Social Security and Medicare. The federal government never requires funding in order to spend, and federal taxes should only be used to regulate aggregate demand and prevent inflation.
TimeForGuinness wrote:The "temporary" Bush tax breaks haven't been allowed to expire, how would a tax holiday? In my mind, you're playing right into the hands of the Tea Party and their "Starve the Beast" philosophy.
I think people will be more tolerant of letting "temporary" tax cuts expire once the economy has improved.

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Re: Our financial system is crumbling this week.

Post by Arthur Dent »

I think you probably want to exercise some caution with the MMT stuff.

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longhornbaseball
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Re: Our financial system is crumbling this week.

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Why? I think the MMT stuff makes more sense than the neoclassical stuff.

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Re: Our financial system is crumbling this week.

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danieltosh
the stock market is like tiger woods... signs of former brilliance but unless they are secretly [expletive] people i don't want to watch.

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Hungary Jack
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Re: Our financial system is crumbling this week.

Post by Hungary Jack »

longhornbaseball wrote:
TimeForGuinness wrote:How do you plan on reestablishing the taxes from the tax holiday after the economy has improved?
I wouldn't, personally, but I'm a nut who thinks we don't need FICA taxes to fund Social Security and Medicare. The federal government never requires funding in order to spend, and federal taxes should only be used to regulate aggregate demand and prevent inflation.
Longhorn,

How should the US government fund itself?

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