Rant/Rave: Bourbon

[33anda3rd]

There are a lot of distilleries in the area.
-CH, in the West Loop (parking sucks, the people are GREAT, they have a fun bar--gin, vodka, and a really good amaro)
-Chicago Distilling in Logan Square (easy parking, the people are GREAT, they have a fun bar--gin, vodka, white whiskey, and my friend Steve who runs the bar at Naha and Brindille and who is an absinthe freak is working on an absinthe with them)
-Journeyman in Three Oaks, MI (1:20 from Chicago, gorgeous tasting room, near the lake, they make everything--vodka, gin, bourbon, rye, wheat whiskey, a jalapeno spirit, lots of stuff)
-Koval (higher end, GREAT people--bourbon, rye, lots of brandy, they are releasing a gin imminently)
-Rhine Hal (brandy and Grappa, West Loop, GREAT people, a huge adorable Great Dane named Atlas)
-FEW (Evanston, they make everything, GREAT people, really solid product across the board)
-North Shore (Lake Bluff, good product, don't know the people very well yet)
They all have tours. They're all doing 100% craft work from grain to bottle except the minor exception of CH, who puts out a bourbon that they buy from a contract distiller, and which they're honest about and label as not their own. Everything else CH does is theirs, and they are aging their own bourbon now, including a couple big barrels I spied down there this summer that Steph at Girl and Goat gave them to age her own bourbon.

I'll drink anything straight out of curiosity, but I'm a grain bill nerd. I'm into if the whiskey is 51% corn (the min for bourbon) or 60% corn or 80%+ corn (like JR Ewing, an almost offensively sweet and disgusting bourbon to my palette but something that might get a non-bourbon drinker into bourbon), or if it's 51% rye (the min for rye) or 60 rye/30 wheat/10 corn or 70 rye/20c corn/10 other. I'll drink a single whiskey at ~120 proof, but would never have a second. I'll follow that with a PBR or a glass of water to slow my down and get my palette back. My sippin' whiskeys, the stuff I have at home, are in the 80-90 range as a rule. When it gets at/over 100 it's a bit hot for my taste, though I know people like their stuff proofed up. I was at the Indie Spirits Expo at the Hilton on Tuesday night and my pal Eric from Wirtz and I were bopping around trying out stuff we hadn't had before, and we came across Dryfly, who is moving to Wirtz in IL and we wanted to try them out. They make a wheat whiskey (100% Washington wheat) that is....well, holy cow, it's friggin delicious, smooth, enjoyable, you can taste the grain and a little bit of baking spice that isn't overtaken by a long time in the barrel. It's nice. They could maybe leave it in the barrel for another several moths to round it out, but it's really smooth and really enjoyable. You could probably have four and not realize you're on the fourth. Man. Good. Really, I'm nitpicking to say it could use a few more moths. They also have a barrel-strength of the same that's like 117 proof if I recall correctly and it just kills your mouth. Destroys it. As a curiosity, fun. As something I'd sip on, no thanks.

The difference between the two is cutting with water to bring the proof down. The wheat whiskey that is 80 proof has been cut with water to get it down to 80. The barrel-strength has not, and it remains high. It's the same stuff, but one is watered down. That might seem odd. My booze is watered down? Yeah. Your typical booze that's 40% alcohol is watered down before it's bottled and shipped out in most cases. And that's what you're getting out of water or ice, is an at-home cutting of the booze. The water brings down the heat of the alcohol and at the same time can make some of the flavors more present on your palette. So by adding a "splash"--which I think of as literally tipping a bottle of water so a "splash" of water hits the glass, just a tiny amount--you can achieve that. I wouldn't really bother with a whiskey under 100 proof. You can just drink that. Though for some the heat of even 80 proof is too high. But if I'm having something over 100, anything barrel-strength, just as a sipper then I'm generally putting a cube in so that as it melts and dilutes I can taste the differences in the flavor as it dilutes and softens. I'm then just doing at home what a distiller does when he cuts his 100-proof whiskey down to 80 for the bottle. Sometimes it's better, sometimes it's not.

That's why overproof is better for cocktails. When your bartender, or you at home, are shaking or stirring a drink you are accomplishing two objectives. First, get the drink cold--a cocktail should be finished cold, before it gets to room temp, and then you should order another. Second, to dilute the drink. Your cocktail is like 40% water depending on the length of the shake/stir. That isn't blasphemy--water adds balance. Water MAKES a well-balanced cocktail.

If you like bourbon in the 90-92 range neat, with no water or ice, then I would suggest not going under that proof as you're exploring other options. I think I've mentioned Benchmark in this thread. It's the same mash as Buffalo, but aged only 8 years instead of 12. So if we do the math.....Same stuff. Booze evaporates as it ages. Benchmark ages 8 years, Buffalo 12....so how can Benchmark be only 80 proof and Buffalo is 90? Water. Benchmark is cut. I'd guess Benchmark isn't for you if what you respond to is the proof in a 90-94 bourbon. Benchmark is probably too soft for you. I might try one, were I you, and at like $11/750mL retail it's not a big investment, to make sure that's not your sweet spot, but I'd bet it's not your thing. I would, however, recommend reaching up to an overproof bourbon that's 100+ and adding a splash. For you guys who like Buffalo and add a rock or a splash, you may well find that saving like 60% and doing the 80 proof Benchmark neat accomplishes what you were doing with Buffalo + a splash. If I were your bartender and you had a neat Buffalo and asked me for a recommendation I might talk you into a George T. Stagg with a splash just to watch your mind get blown when you sip it and go "Holy [expletive] goddamn [expletive] this is amazing."

Rock, BTW, less desirable than a splash. Consider your wine, which opens up as it breathes. It's also getting to room temp. When we taste beer we cup the glass and swirl to warm it a bit and release flavor/aroma. The rock chills the booze to the point often that it dulls some of the desirable flavors in your whiskey. Warmth releases, chilling kills some flavors.

The cool thing, though, if you find that you're more into mash than you are into heat/proof, is that many whiskeys come out of the same distilleries and rick houses. The Sazerac/Stagg distillery puts out soooooo many things: Buffalo, Benchmark, all the Pappy, WL Weller, George T. Stagg (a very notable high-proof), and a bunch more. It's fun to explore all of them to see the variations from one distillery under different cuts, agings, etc.

If you want to really take a badass distillery tour, do the six-hour drive south from the western burbs to the bourbon trail outside Louisville. Go to Stagg. They have different tours that start at different times of the day covering various aspects of their operation. Taking all their tours in a day is a good way to see how the tradition and craft and art and science of the whole thing has been carried on down there for generations. It's truly fascinating.

[AWvsCBsteeeerike3]

Thanks for all the info. Just a quick question about grains....where do you find that information? I've never seen it on the bottle. Wiki seems to tell you, but I'd kind of feel like a nerd looking up grain composition in the liquor store....maybe not.

Also, so....what makes the difference between Old Forester and Woodford Reserve? If they use the same mash (what exactly that is...I am not sure I understand but whatever), is the difference just the aging process/length and cutting?

[jim]

If it's $11 I will try it. And I don't know if those are my sweet spot or not, it's just what I like. I also like Evan Williams 1783 for the price ($18 at Binny's) and I think it's 80. I'll definitely be looking for that cheeper stuff.

[33anda3rd]

Thanks for all the info. Just a quick question about grains....where do you find that information? I've never seen it on the bottle. Wiki seems to tell you, but I'd kind of feel like a nerd looking up grain composition in the liquor store....maybe not.

I don't buy a lot retail, but I talk every day with distillers, brand ambassadors, other bar owners/managers/bartenders, distributor reps, craft spirits specialists who work for the distributors, etc. Most of them talk in the language of grain bill. In very basic shorthand: rye is spice, corn is sweet , wheat and any other adjunct is generally soft/smooth. Others talk in terms of barrels. This guy Eric who is a craft spirits manager at Wirtz can taste something and tell you what it was aged in and if it was aged too long/short or just right. It's amazing. And I'm very lucky because I get to talk to him like 2X/week. Being a retail customer is a lot more daunting because you don't have strong relationships often with people who either want to help you or want to sell you something, but you can find those people at the right liquor store or bar.

I'd offer a couple suggestions. Find a good liquor store in your area and chat up the staff. Tell them what you like and what you want. Or do the same in a bar, sample some things the bartender recommends and then buy the one you like. But don't hesitate to ask. People in the spirits industry are 2% snobbish jerks and 98% enthusiastic professionals who like talking about spirits. You could also probably find a board like this one on the internets for whiskey, there must be a bunch out there.

Also, so....what makes the difference between Old Forester and Woodford Reserve? If they use the same mash (what exactly that is...I am not sure I understand but whatever), is the difference just the aging process/length and cutting?

Mash bill is the grain bill. For Forester and Woodford it's like 75 corn/15 rye/10 barley or something. When you're talking "mash" you're talking about the ratio or recipe of grain. The first step is mashing the grain (covering it in hot water, like starting a beer brew) and fermenting it for a week or so with yeast, creating an alcoholic wash often called "beer." That gets distilled. The distillate gets put in a barrel. The stuff in the barrel either gets cut or goes into the bottle uncut. If your grain bill, mash, and beer are the same, there's not much left to change. There are only those few factors, but practically infinite combinations of ways to change them.

[AWvsCBsteeeerike3]

Thanks for all the info. Just a quick question about grains....where do you find that information? I've never seen it on the bottle. Wiki seems to tell you, but I'd kind of feel like a nerd looking up grain composition in the liquor store....maybe not.

I don't buy a lot retail, but I talk every day with distillers, brand ambassadors, other bar owners/managers/bartenders, distributor reps, craft spirits specialists who work for the distributors, etc. Most of them talk in the language of grain bill. In very basic shorthand: rye is spice, corn is sweet , wheat and any other adjunct is generally soft/smooth. Others talk in terms of barrels. This guy Eric who is a craft spirits manager at Wirtz can taste something and tell you what it was aged in and if it was aged too long/short or just right. It's amazing. And I'm very lucky because I get to talk to him like 2X/week. Being a retail customer is a lot more daunting because you don't have strong relationships often with people who either want to help you or want to sell you something, but you can find those people at the right liquor store or bar.

I'd offer a couple suggestions. Find a good liquor store in your area and chat up the staff. Tell them what you like and what you want. Or do the same in a bar, sample some things the bartender recommends and then buy the one you like. But don't hesitate to ask. People in the spirits industry are 2% snobbish jerks and 98% enthusiastic professionals who like talking about spirits. You could also probably find a board like this one on the internets for whiskey, there must be a bunch out there.

Also, so....what makes the difference between Old Forester and Woodford Reserve? If they use the same mash (what exactly that is...I am not sure I understand but whatever), is the difference just the aging process/length and cutting?

Mash bill is the grain bill. For Forester and Woodford it's like 75 corn/15 rye/10 barley or something. When you're talking "mash" you're talking about the ratio or recipe of grain. The first step is mashing the grain (covering it in hot water, like starting a beer brew) and fermenting it for a week or so with yeast, creating an alcoholic wash often called "beer." That gets distilled. The distillate gets put in a barrel. The stuff in the barrel either gets cut or goes into the bottle uncut. If your grain bill, mash, and beer are the same, there's not much left to change. There are only those few factors, but practically infinite combinations of ways to change them.

Makes sense. If that's the case though, going back to Woodford/OF, what makes Woodford Reserve twice as expensive as Old Forester?

[AWvsCBsteeeerike3]

The problem with finding knowledgeable folk around here is...the bar scene just isn't that niched. There's a cigar bar that has a few whiskey/bourbons iirc and....and....then I guess there's Big Whiskeys which is like a Jim Beam/Jameson pushing hot spot. I knew the manager there a while ago...he was a pretty cool 25 year old that was a good marketer/manager but didn't know much about the liquors. Kind of a bummer, really.

[33anda3rd]

I'd turn to the internet.

[jim]

I have discovered a problem with bourbon. It sneaks up on you. I feel like [expletive] today. I think my bourbon phase has ran it coarse. Back to beer where I don't misjudge like that.

Which I guess is the original theme of this thread.

[AWvsCBsteeeerike3]

I'd turn to the internet.

That's what I'm doing here!

[33anda3rd]

K, A-dub, and apologies if you mentioned this in the thread previous, but what kinda bourbon do you dig?