2016 Election Thread (My God Kill Me Now)

[thrill]

The fact that's he's a super leftist socialist.

For an American.

[Michael]

Everyone already knows that. Those who don't will find out that he's actually not a super leftist socialist and would have passed for a republican in the 60's--i.e. the good old days.

I really don't think the average American is really paying attention right now. I think once those commercials of Bernie calling himself a socialist are run on repeat things may get really hairy.

That said, The Bern is awesome. I think the world would be a better place with more people like him.

edit -

The fact that's he's a super leftist socialist.

For an American.

Yep, no doubt.

[Joe Shlabotnik]

Everyone already knows that.

The following is a poll of Democrats - its going to be worse among the general population.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ber ... ecbfa52276

[MrSaigon]

Everyone already knows that. Those who don't will find out that he's actually not a super leftist socialist and would have passed for a republican in the 60's--i.e. the good old days.

I really don't think the average American is really paying attention right now. I think once those commercials of Bernie calling himself a socialist are run on repeat things may get really hairy.

That said, The Bern is awesome.

This has been surprisingly true in a couple interactions I've had with extended family.

[Jocephus]

that article was last updated 9/21/15.

i'm not smart enough to know if time has passed for those numbers to be different. im really not paying attention to these races right now.

[Michael]

Everyone already knows that. Those who don't will find out that he's actually not a super leftist socialist and would have passed for a republican in the 60's--i.e. the good old days.

I really don't think the average American is really paying attention right now. I think once those commercials of Bernie calling himself a socialist are run on repeat things may get really hairy.

That said, The Bern is awesome.

This has been surprisingly true in a couple interactions I've had with extended family.

Honestly, I don't blame them. This part of the election cycle is useless for the vast majority of Americans. I've read most people don't really start paying attention making up their minds until the last few weeks of a election. I think that's completely understandable.

[Schlich]

Knowing enough about him to give a favorable/unfavorable rating is not the same thing as understanding that Bernie describes himself as a democratic socialist. That is the first thing that people learn about him. In fact, that data just goes to show me that the socialist thing is not an issue because otherwise a lot more people would have just marked "unfavorable."

edit: yeah, super old poll, useless data.

[Arthur Dent]

Let's just agree that the socialist label is a substantial general election risk but that we don't know how much especially when the alternatives have their own serious baggage.

Edit: And I think detoxifying the word socialist is a worthy and important goal to which the Sanders campaign is contributing greatly.

Anyone else want to discuss the liberal wonks turn against Sanders?

[Radbird]

I'll take socialism over the alternative that just might present itself this November. Any of this sound familiar?

Definitions of fascism

In his 1995 essay "Eternal Fascism", Umberto Eco lists 14 general properties of fascist ideology.[10] He argues that it is not possible to organise these into a coherent system, but that "it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it". He uses the term "Ur-fascism" as a generic description of different historical forms of fascism. Eleven of the 14 properties are as follows:

"The Cult of Tradition", combining cultural syncretism with a rejection of modernism.

"The Cult of Action for Action's Sake", which dictates that action is of value in itself, and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science.

"Disagreement Is Treason" - fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action.

"Fear of Difference", which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants.

"Appeal to a Frustrated Middle Class", fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups.

"Obsession with a Plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat; This often involves an appeal to xenophobia (such as the German elite's 'fear'of the 1930s Jewish populace's businesses and well-doings, see also anti-Semitism) with an identification of their being an internal security threat: He also cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession.

"Pacifism is Trafficking with the Enemy" because "Life is Permanent Warfare" - there must always be an enemy to fight; Both fascist Germany under Hitler and Italy under Mussolini worked first to organize and clean up their respective countries and then build the war machines that they later intended to and did use, despite Germany being under restrictions of the Versailles treaty to NOT build a military force. This principle leads to a fundamental contradiction within fascism: the incompatibility of ultimate triumph with perpetual war.

"Contempt for the Weak" - although a fascist society is elitist, everybody in the society is educated to become a hero; for example: the 1930s Germans, especially Hitler labeled Jews inferior humans thus weak as well as the physically disabled, the mentally retarded and mentally ill as weak—thus these "weak" or unwanteds were eliminated (executed) or "exterminated" (the Jews, or even Germans with disabilities).

"Selective Populism" - the People have a common will, which is not delegated but directed by a dictator; This casts doubt upon a democratic institution, because the leader and government "no longer represent the Voice of the People".

"Newspeak" - fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning.

"Non-truths & Lying/Spread of Propaganda" - Umberto Eco wrote from a modern-day standpoint about Fascism; He did not study the Fascism of Spain, Italy or Germany where this style of governing evolved in the 1930s prior to World War II: Those involved were Francisco Franco, Benito Mussolini and Adolf Hitler, and more can be learned about fascism by reading on these people.

[Schlich]

Let's just agree that the socialist label is a substantial general election risk but that we don't know how much especially when the alternatives have their own serious baggage.

Anyone want to discuss the liberal wonks turn against Sanders?

I'm loving the dialogue happening. Coates and Vox are leveling great criticism, even though it's hypocritical on Vox's part considering their history. Krugman is full of hot air. But in my opinion there's an element of gaslighting, undermining Sanders' career accomplishments and MO, he has always been a pragmatist working in the weeds.

I'm especially enjoying the conversation: How much do campaign proposals actually matter?

edit: point/counterpoint