pioneer98 wrote:Totally agree Jim. I have 3 siblings that are basically fluent in Spanish - took it all through high school and college, travel to Spanish speaking countries, etc. Two of them use Spanish in their jobs every day, and the 3rd one is married to someone who does. They all say the same thing - that these immigrants really are some of the most American people. They are ambitious and work hard. The majority of them are Christians! Many of them are devout. They share a lot of the same conservative, family values as Republicans. This is why it is so utterly baffling that Republicans don't embrace them. If they did, they could essentially send the Democratic party to the minor leagues.
Gary Johnson should be courting Latinos like crazy. He has a moderate stance on immigration, and he did that as a governor of a border state with a heavy immigrant population. And wasn't this supposed to be the lesson from Romney's loss? They needed to find a way to court these voters. They've gone in exactly the opposite direction from that.
They do share many values that old school Republicans have, and it does seem like they would be there for the taking.
I enjoyed hearing thrill's story, like he said there are some bad dudes and good dudes, mostly good dudes though. I feel fortunate to have gotten to know some Mexicans personally and understand their culture and values.
pioneer98 wrote:Not all Trump voters are racist. But a lot of racists are Trump voters.
All Trump voters are either ignoring or accepting racism.
Oh please.
How are they not? Trump advocates not allowing people of one cultural/racial group from judging cases involving other members of the same cultural/racial group. He has said that - everybody is aware of that. I am sure you are aware with that. While holding other racial/cultural groups to that standard, he has no problem with white judges overseeing cases involving him.
Tell me - how is that not racist? Your 'oh please' looks like you fall into ghostrunner's 'ignoring' column.
pioneer98 wrote:Not all Trump voters are racist. But a lot of racists are Trump voters.
All Trump voters are either ignoring or accepting racism.
Oh please.
How are they not? Trump advocates not allowing people of one cultural/racial group from judging cases involving other members of the same cultural/racial group. He has said that - everybody is aware of that. I am sure you are aware with that. While holding other racial/cultural groups to that standard, he has no problem with white judges overseeing cases involving him.
Tell me - how is that not racist? Your 'oh please' looks like you fall into ghostrunner's 'ignoring' column.
The most absurd part is that he thinks they are likely prejudiced because of racist statements HE made. I mean, look at the logic there. He could just keep making racist and bigoted comments until he "disqualifies" half the judges on the bench.
I'll admit I don't know squat about Gary Johnson. My impression is more of libertarian ideology. I have a libertarian bent in the self-reliance, leave-me-alone, live-let-live, to-each-his-own sense. All kind of generic broad ideals -just as progressive and conservative ones are broad.
What bothers me about political Libertarians is they are rather absolute about their generic ideals. All political parties have their absolutists, but with Libertarians, it seems more prevalent. I guess part of this is because it's a smaller political group, trying to stake a claim in the political scene (not unlike Bernie).
But still, they don't seem to acknowledge that their ideology taken to an extreme is the same horse [expletive] (or worse) that complete conservative utopia, or progressive utopia would be.
I can cast a pragmatic vote for a democrat knowing full well there is a lot of crap there (and hedged by conservatives), and I'm not a part of their club. Like wise I used to be able to vote republicans knowing about the crap-(but fwiw, which is nothing, can't do so currently in good conscience until they do some major house-cleaning). but with Libertarians, it would be like I'd have to join the stupid club. and I don't want to do that.
pioneer98 wrote:Not all Trump voters are racist. But a lot of racists are Trump voters.
All Trump voters are either ignoring or accepting racism.
Oh please.
How are they not? Trump advocates not allowing people of one cultural/racial group from judging cases involving other members of the same cultural/racial group. He has said that - everybody is aware of that. I am sure you are aware with that. While holding other racial/cultural groups to that standard, he has no problem with white judges overseeing cases involving him.
Tell me - how is that not racist? Your 'oh please' looks like you fall into ghostrunner's 'ignoring' column.
I know people that support Trump because they feel very strongly about a couple of his positions, and simply feel that overall the country is better off with him rather than Clinton despite not agreeing with him on every - or even the majority - of his stances.
pioneer98 wrote:Not all Trump voters are racist. But a lot of racists are Trump voters.
All Trump voters are either ignoring or accepting racism. When he said Mexico is sending rapists and murderers, something which is objectively untrue, he intentionally courted racism and xenophobia..
It IS a fact that illegals have committed rape and murder.
If you think the average illegal is a quality person, you have been deceived.
Of course illegals have done all sorts of crimes, that's no different than saying US citizens are rapists and murderes because it is a fact that citizens have done that too.
If you think the average illegal(at least the ones that I have met from Mexico and Central America) is not a quality person, then you haven't gotten to know them. I have come to the realization that in many ways, both documented and undocumented people in this country are some of the most American people I have ever met. The American Dream - freedom, liberty, the chance to work hard and make a life for yourself and your family - as a group the Mexican and Central American people I know believe that as much as any citizen I know and given the opportunity would die for that. I look at this country and the decline of core family values - and then almost without exception I see the strong nucleus of family in Mexican families, and I can't help but think that's what this country is built on. Ask some average Mexican with kids what hobbies they have and they will look at you like you are from Mars. Raising their family, working. That's their hobby.
I just completely disagree with any characterization of Mexicans or Central Americans like this. On the whole, I actually have a very high regard for their culture and them as a people. To the level where I just absolutely admire them.
The American economy is built on the backs of immigrants. The beauty of this is that at the very bottom, the base of our economy and the lowest paying jobs, we end up with a group of people doing these jobs that have the brain power to be a doctor or engineer with a work ethic. They don't have the education, but the raw intelligence is there. Compare that to other countries without immigration. Who does those crappy jobs? The idiots, the people with bad work ethics. With a large immigrant population hungry for the American dream, we get ditch diggers with a brain who actually want to dig ditches, consequently better ditches dug faster. That's the base of who we are.
I agree that we have to control the border, and we have to know who is in the country, and we may have to deport people during that process. I'm not for amnesty.
When people say lies like this about a group of people it just ruins any chance of having a logical discussion over immigration.
Excellent post Jim.
Living in Arizona, I am bombarded by the news outlets talking about crimes committed by illegals. They then go to speak to the families, some of the people have been here for 30+ years, and the person they talk to is almost always speaking in Spanish, which sets off the hate mongers, when I bet most of the people can speak English, they are just better at communicating, or the news wants them to speak in Spanish to get the Xenophobes riled up. Most of the Mexicans I have met in Phoenix are the hardest working and most generous and loving people I know. Yes, there are bad people who come here illegally, but the vast majority come here to make a better life. The same people who are screaming about illegals being criminals are the same ones saying don't judge all cops on the actions of a few, but the same can also be said for the people saying all cops are bad based on the actions of a few, but don't judge illegals on the actions of a few.
I do think the immigration system needs to be overhauled. It needs to be made easier for honest hard working people to immigrate to the U.S. But better security screening needs to be in place to keep people intent on doing harm out.
pioneer98 wrote:Not all Trump voters are racist. But a lot of racists are Trump voters.
All Trump voters are either ignoring or accepting racism. When he said Mexico is sending rapists and murderers, something which is objectively untrue, he intentionally courted racism and xenophobia..
It IS a fact that illegals have committed rape and murder.
If you think the average illegal is a quality person, you have been deceived.
Of course illegals have done all sorts of crimes, that's no different than saying US citizens are rapists and murderes because it is a fact that citizens have done that too.
If you think the average illegal(at least the ones that I have met from Mexico and Central America) is not a quality person, then you haven't gotten to know them. I have come to the realization that in many ways, both documented and undocumented people in this country are some of the most American people I have ever met. The American Dream - freedom, liberty, the chance to work hard and make a life for yourself and your family - as a group the Mexican and Central American people I know believe that as much as any citizen I know and given the opportunity would die for that. I look at this country and the decline of core family values - and then almost without exception I see the strong nucleus of family in Mexican families, and I can't help but think that's what this country is built on. Ask some average Mexican with kids what hobbies they have and they will look at you like you are from Mars. Raising their family, working. That's their hobby.
I just completely disagree with any characterization of Mexicans or Central Americans like this. On the whole, I actually have a very high regard for their culture and them as a people. To the level where I just absolutely admire them.
The American economy is built on the backs of immigrants. The beauty of this is that at the very bottom, the base of our economy and the lowest paying jobs, we end up with a group of people doing these jobs that have the brain power to be a doctor or engineer with a work ethic. They don't have the education, but the raw intelligence is there. Compare that to other countries without immigration. Who does those crappy jobs? The idiots, the people with bad work ethics. With a large immigrant population hungry for the American dream, we get ditch diggers with a brain who actually want to dig ditches, consequently better ditches dug faster. That's the base of who we are.
I agree that we have to control the border, and we have to know who is in the country, and we may have to deport people during that process. I'm not for amnesty.
When people say lies like this about a group of people it just ruins any chance of having a logical discussion over immigration.
Excellent post Jim.
Living in Arizona, I am bombarded by the news outlets talking about crimes committed by illegals. They then go to speak to the families, some of the people have been here for 30+ years, and the person they talk to is almost always speaking in Spanish, which sets off the hate mongers, when I bet most of the people can speak English, they are just better at communicating, or the news wants them to speak in Spanish to get the Xenophobes riled up. Most of the Mexicans I have met in Phoenix are the hardest working and most generous and loving people I know. Yes, there are bad people who come here illegally, but the vast majority come here to make a better life. The same people who are screaming about illegals being criminals are the same ones saying don't judge all cops on the actions of a few, but the same can also be said for the people saying all cops are bad based on the actions of a few, but don't judge illegals on the actions of a few.
I do think the immigration system needs to be overhauled. It needs to be made easier for honest hard working people to immigrate to the U.S. But better security screening needs to be in place to keep people intent on doing harm out.
One of the misunderstandings I think is just how difficult it is to immigrate here. If you are Mexican without education and without family in the US already, there really is no line to wait in. It doesn't exist for all practical purposes.
pioneer98 wrote:Not all Trump voters are racist. But a lot of racists are Trump voters.
All Trump voters are either ignoring or accepting racism.
Oh please.
How are they not? Trump advocates not allowing people of one cultural/racial group from judging cases involving other members of the same cultural/racial group. He has said that - everybody is aware of that. I am sure you are aware with that. While holding other racial/cultural groups to that standard, he has no problem with white judges overseeing cases involving him.
Tell me - how is that not racist? Your 'oh please' looks like you fall into ghostrunner's 'ignoring' column.
I know people that support Trump because they feel very strongly about a couple of his positions, and simply feel that overall the country is better off with him rather than Clinton despite not agreeing with him on every - or even the majority - of his stances.
That's all well and good, but it's not mutually exclusive with the idea that Trump supporters are either accepting or ignoring racism.
Thanks for posting . that is the most and only version of convention coverage that I can tolerate.
I am sure the Stewart Colbert stuff is pretty good - though their audience heads' exploding after every quip or Stewart facial expression tends to be too much.
