lukethedrifter wrote:So we must accept that is only and always about the money and only the money when we are talking FAs? Don't say years because years equal money. It's only ever about the money. It's never about whether you want to make more than you ever dreamed of in a place you want to work versus a place you aren't so sure about. Got it.
I definitely think money and years are the largest driving factor by far. That said, there are surely other factors. Determining those other factors on a case-by-case basis is pretty much folly short of direct quotes and known factors.
As far as the Christianity thing goes, I'm pretty sure that element exists in every single clubhouse in baseball. Players, managers, and even front office people tend to be very conservative and religious. The Cardinals are not unique in this regard.
Do they still do that Christian Day at the ballpark? That seems weird. Do many other teams have similar events?
It seems like they should do a Pride Day. Other MLB teams have, and so have the Blues.
When they (meaning fans, really) say the team wins in spite of him, that's because of on-field decisions. If we are criticizing Matheny over his leadership abilities, then we'll never be happy. I've seen comparsions between him and TLR, and I don't see it. Matheny has been great with young players. They love him, and he plays them. He's a players guy. TLR often had an unfair rep for that, but some of that was seeded in truth.
There's no doubt in my mind that the 100 wins for this team in 2015 are the result of his leadership. They had more things to overcome than any team in recent history, including the death of a teammate and friend, and they had more wins than any team in baseball.
AWvsCBsteeeerike3 wrote:What doesn't add up is why he is not signed. It's known an offer was made on Monday. It's known that 3 different reporters in STL have reported that there's a hesitation on Fowler's part to play for Matheny/Cardinals.
There are only a couple different options:
1. Fowler doesn't want to play for the Cardinals and is waiting/hoping for another offer.
2. The offer is too low and Fowler is waiting/hoping for a higher offer....for 3 days now.
3. The reports of the offer to Fowler were wrong.
That's it. We may never know, but 1 is the most likely at this point, no?
We're not privy to all the players thoughts so guessing is just futile. But, we can certainly deduct that Fowler not wanting to play for the Cardinals is within the realm of possibility.
Yes, I acknowleged that here and elsewhere ... that he might not want to play here. I'm trying to get to the bottom of why that is and I just can't seem to put my finger on it. If there is something that, it needs to be addressed. And you have to be able to identify it before you can address it.
I still think this is largely about money. Or years, which is really about money.
About the offer. Goold said that the Cards made an initial offer to Fowler, possibly to just feel out what the final offer would need to be. I have no heard a confirmed report that we submitted a serious, competitive offer to Fowler.
Gotcha, I thought you were saying that it didn't add up that Fowler didn't want to play for the cardinals for [insert whatever reason here].
I don't know if it makes sense or not, but it does seem odd that if they wanted him he would not have signed and by multiple accounts they have an offer out there to move things along. 4/60 is the offer I saw. I also saw the bluejays offered that as well which discounts the theory he doesn't want to play in STL because he could have just signed with the jays.
MrCrowesGarden wrote:
Do they still do that Christian Day at the ballpark? That seems weird. Do many other teams have similar events?
It seems like they should do a Pride Day. Other MLB teams have, and so have the Blues.
They do, as a theme day. They also have a Jewish Community Night. I know the Nats have a Faith Day as well. The Dodgers have one, which most recently involved Kershaw and Adrian Gonzalez. The Braves, Royals, and Rockies have one. The Giants have Fellowship Day, hosted by the Salvation Army. The Mets have one. These are just the ones I've found.
I do agree that they should do a Pride Day as a theme.
Derrick Goold is on the radio now and said all the talk about having a more "fun" clubhouse in 2016 was a direct response to Heyward, so apparently it's a real concern. And he basically confirmed that Fowler is ambivalent about playing here.
AWvsCBsteeeerike3 wrote:I don't know if it makes sense or not, but it does seem odd that if they wanted him he would not have signed and by multiple accounts they have an offer out there to move things along. 4/60 is the offer I saw. I also saw the bluejays offered that as well which discounts the theory he doesn't want to play in STL because he could have just signed with the jays.
Well, I'm certainly not the final authority on any of this. I saw the Jays offered 4/$60 but haven't heard that the Cards offer was in that range. Doesn't mean it's not, just that I didn't see it. I'll take your word for it.
If we're even with the Jays, you know what would make Fowler suddenly want to play for Matheny? 4/$65 or 4/$70.
Anything in that range would be a reasonable deal. If he rejects more money to play for the Jays then we know we have a real problem and can address it.
-- I'm sure he talked to Heyward. I don't know the content of those conversations. Fowler has never indicated that he thought the Cardinals wouldn't contend. He said the exact opposite of that during October and even late in the season. He viewed the Cardinals as a team looking to win with the payroll and support to win. His words.
Q:Do you believe the rumors that Dexter Fowler does not want to play in St. Louis?
Goold: Not until I hear them from him. That should be how it works. I know that the Cardinals fit some of the traits he personally said he wanted in his next team -- and that there are other things he wants that the Cardinals cannot offer. There were more preferable landing sports for him.
Q: Is it true that Dexter Fowler does not want to play for Matheny?
Goold: I don't know if that's the case. Again, it would have to come from Dexter Fowler and not some guess or speculation. The chat the past few weeks has really been filled with questions like this -- lots of circling around a subject we've addressed before. Not all players want to play for all managers, just like not all of the people at your workplace want to work for all bosses. Personalities mesh. Personalities clash. There are players who have told me that they would prefer not to play in the business-like, stoic clubhouse that the Cardinals have created, and there are others in "fun houses" that have told me they would prefer to have the direction, clearheadedness and single-mindedness of the Cardinals. Mike Matheny has created a player-first clubhouse. That is appealing to some players. Not all. Young guys have to learn it without having a choice where they can go. Free agents, like Fowler, can choose.
Farewell Friends wrote:Derrick Goold is on the radio now and said all the talk about having a more "fun" clubhouse in 2016 was a direct response to Heyward, so apparently it's a real concern. And he basically confirmed that Fowler is ambivalent about playing here.
Fowler almost certainly took less from someone else to go back the Cubs.
Wonder if he wants to do it again? Wonder if the Cubs could get him for 3/$33 or something ridiculous just because he wants to play there. I just looked at his Twitter feed and it's still all Cub's. I'm sure that's not unusual at all -- not changing your Twitter images -- but he sure seemed to love playing in Chicago.
I am not going to claim to have definitive answers, but maybe it's not (just) Matheny? Both cases of the supposed 'atmosphere' turning people away are african american players, and currently the Cardinals have no african american players or coaches. From a quick glance at rosters, every other team in the NL Central has both. St. Louis hasn't exactly had the best reputation recently for being welcoming to that group, right or wrong. Not trying to cast blame or make a political argument, but a lot of clubhouses get segmented at least partially on racial lines. If no one like you is already there, and the other players that speak your language aren't your type of pal(that's where the stodgy/Christian argument would come in), then I can see people being less interested.
Of course, money uber alles but maybe the Cardinals haven't been offering the money to stand out in that regard? I dunno, not claiming to have the answers, but I do think the Matheny-centric focus might not be quite right.
