Cardinals/Marlins Offseason Dance - Stanton Says Nope

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sighyoung
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Re: Cardinals/Marlins Offseason Dance - Stanton Says Nope

Post by sighyoung »

Rafi wrote:Hey guys a marlins fan here. Well kinda former fan lol. Always admired Cardinals from afar since the days of Pujols, Rolen, Edmonds days. Anyways when you get Ozuna I’ll likely become a cards fan if y’all will accept me :D.

Anyways you all will love Ozuna. He’s a leader and he’s very fun to watch. As much defensively as he is offensively. He’s got an absolute cannon and I love when teams try to score from 2b on a hit to l ft. Not happening.

On the trade front I just hope a fair deal gets done for botH sides. Hopefully not an overpay so the Cards can add more than just Ozuna and hopefully lot the fish get some
Useful pieces. (Can’t help The sentimental attachment
Welcome to the board, and thank you for your first post.

We'll see how the Ozuna sweepstakes play out. Miami will get quite a haul of prospects for him, and the bidding is ramping up right now.

In the meantime, good luck with your search for a team. It's rough to watch Miami tear down every few years.

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JL21
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Re: Cardinals/Marlins Offseason Dance - Stanton Says Nope

Post by JL21 »

Magneto2.0 wrote:Flahery, Alcantara, O'Neill, J. Martinez for Ozuna and whatever lower tier minor to even out the trade
This feels like an overpay. But let's test it out.

Ozuna has two more years of control. BB Ref estimates his 2018 arb. salary around $10.9M. Let's say for those two years, you're going to pay $24M. Steamer and Depth Charts project him in the mid-to-high 3's for wins (3.5 and 3.7). Let's assume that the market will pay him, in prospects, for more than that. We'll give him 9 wins over the next two years. That's reasonable.

In this market, the cost of a win is going to be about $10.5M. Multiplied by Ozuna's 9 win projection and you're looking at $94.5M. Subtract his actual $24M salary and you have to give the Marlins about $70M in surplus value.

Flaherty is a top 100 pitcher- he came in at #57 in the mid-season BA update. That's worth $16.5M in value. Then you have Alcantara, who's not top 100 but he's right on the fringe. We don't have a firm value for that, but it's probably in the $14M range. Similarly, O'Neill is fringe top 100- hell, he was a top 100 then slipped a bit. Hitters have more value. That gets him in the $18M range. So far, we're just under $50M. You need to make up about $20M in surplus value to make this work.

That leaves us Jose Martinez. The Fish will get him for free for 2 years, then fairly cheap arb. prices for 3 years after that. To make up the value, Martinez just needs to be worth 2 wins between this year and next, or 3-3.5 wins over the next three years. He was worth 1.6 last year, Steamer and Depth Charts have him between 0.5 and 0.8 this year... He's no lock to make the 2 win total, or the 3-3.5 over three years, but he's a fairly reasonable bet to do so.

Long story short... this is a fair price. It's a small overpay, but that mostly depends on your opinion of Jose Martinez (and I don't think any of us care enough about Jose Martinez for it to stop a deal like this). And yes, there's competition driving up Ozuna's price but that's already included in his projected surplus value with a higher estimation of his 2-year worth.

I'd still much rather try to get it done without giving up Flaherty. Or better yet, I'd try to eat Ziegler's contract to see if that lets me keep Alcantara or Flaherty. But those four you mention are a fair deal.

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Re: Cardinals/Marlins Offseason Dance - Stanton Says Nope

Post by dmarx114 »

Magneto2.0 wrote:
dmarx114 wrote:
Fat Strat wrote:
dmarx114 wrote:I am very much against all these Ozuna proposals.
Everyone is just spitballing. We don’t know anything.

But these deals are going to hurt.
Yeah, just saying I don't like any of the offers grb is throwing out there.

Giving up too much.
What is your suggestion to improve the team?
I would offer Hudson, Grichuk, and O'Neil for Ozuna or Donaldson.

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Re: Cardinals/Marlins Offseason Dance - Stanton Says Nope

Post by AWvsCBsteeeerike3 »

JL21 wrote:
Magneto2.0 wrote:Flahery, Alcantara, O'Neill, J. Martinez for Ozuna and whatever lower tier minor to even out the trade
This feels like an overpay. But let's test it out.

Ozuna has two more years of control. BB Ref estimates his 2018 arb. salary around $10.9M. Let's say for those two years, you're going to pay $24M. Steamer and Depth Charts project him in the mid-to-high 3's for wins (3.5 and 3.7). Let's assume that the market will pay him, in prospects, for more than that. We'll give him 9 wins over the next two years. That's reasonable.

In this market, the cost of a win is going to be about $10.5M. Multiplied by Ozuna's 9 win projection and you're looking at $94.5M. Subtract his actual $24M salary and you have to give the Marlins about $70M in surplus value.

Flaherty is a top 100 pitcher- he came in at #57 in the mid-season BA update. That's worth $16.5M in value. Then you have Alcantara, who's not top 100 but he's right on the fringe. We don't have a firm value for that, but it's probably in the $14M range. Similarly, O'Neill is fringe top 100- hell, he was a top 100 then slipped a bit. Hitters have more value. That gets him in the $18M range. So far, we're just under $50M. You need to make up about $20M in surplus value to make this work.

That leaves us Jose Martinez. The Fish will get him for free for 2 years, then fairly cheap arb. prices for 3 years after that. To make up the value, Martinez just needs to be worth 2 wins between this year and next, or 3-3.5 wins over the next three years. He was worth 1.6 last year, Steamer and Depth Charts have him between 0.5 and 0.8 this year... He's no lock to make the 2 win total, or the 3-3.5 over three years, but he's a fairly reasonable bet to do so.

Long story short... this is a fair price. It's a small overpay, but that mostly depends on your opinion of Jose Martinez (and I don't think any of us care enough about Jose Martinez for it to stop a deal like this). And yes, there's competition driving up Ozuna's price but that's already included in his projected surplus value with a higher estimation of his 2-year worth.

I'd still much rather try to get it done without giving up Flaherty. Or better yet, I'd try to eat Ziegler's contract to see if that lets me keep Alcantara or Flaherty. But those four you mention are a fair deal.
Great analysis. Quick question. What would the Cardinals do if they took on Ziegler's contract? Try to flip him while eating part of the contract? There's no way he's part of the bullpen next year, right?

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Tim
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Re: Cardinals/Marlins Offseason Dance - Stanton Says Nope

Post by Tim »

We won't get Ozuna.

We'll get Martin Prado and like it.

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Re: Cardinals/Marlins Offseason Dance - Stanton Says Nope

Post by MinorLeagueGuy »

Tim wrote:We won't get Ozuna.

We'll get Martin Prado and like it.
Dude I just dreamed that scenario. Nightmare.

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Re: Cardinals/Marlins Offseason Dance - Stanton Says Nope

Post by Radbird »

Rafi wrote:Hey guys a marlins fan here. Well kinda former fan lol. Always admired Cardinals from afar since the days of Pujols, Rolen, Edmonds days. Anyways when you get Ozuna I’ll likely become a cards fan if y’all will accept me :D.

Anyways you all will love Ozuna. He’s a leader and he’s very fun to watch. As much defensively as he is offensively. He’s got an absolute cannon and I love when teams try to score from 2b on a hit to l ft. Not happening.

On the trade front I just hope a fair deal gets done for botH sides. Hopefully not an overpay so the Cards can add more than just Ozuna and hopefully lot the fish get some
Useful pieces. (Can’t help The sentimental attachment)
Hi Rafi and welcome to GRB. Hope you become a regular poster regardless of which team you decide to root for.

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Re: Cardinals/Marlins Offseason Dance - Stanton Says Nope

Post by Fat Strat »

AWvsCBsteeeerike3 wrote:Great analysis. Quick question. What would the Cardinals do if they took on Ziegler's contract? Try to flip him while eating part of the contract? There's no way he's part of the bullpen next year, right?
I think if they were willing to take on Ziegler they would not have gone out and signed Gregerson early. There's no way that Ziegler could be viewed as a closer. It's possible that Gregerson could close, but he doesn't really fit the mold we have talked about. So, we would be looking at a third addition -- a legit closer. At that point we'll have about $30-$40M of our available payroll space tied up in there relievers. Yuck.

Actually, that might be what's holding up a deal. Marlins might be insisting that we take Ziegler. Cards might be insisting that we not. I think we could flip him for peanuts later as long as someone took most of his salary.

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Re: Cardinals/Marlins Offseason Dance - Stanton Says Nope

Post by JL21 »

AWvsCBsteeeerike3 wrote:Great analysis. Quick question. What would the Cardinals do if they took on Ziegler's contract? Try to flip him while eating part of the contract? There's no way he's part of the bullpen next year, right?
Since we're basically in a place where teams routinely carry 13 pitchers (and at least 12), and the whole fancy trend is to throw as many arms as you can at a season to eat up innings, I'd put him in the pen in favor of one of the other guys who has options (Brebbia comes to mind as someone you can stash in AAA). When/if he craps out, you Jhonny him and move on with your day. Or you could certainly try to flip him, though I'm not sure you're going to find anything. And that's fine. By eating his contract, you've ideally kept a ready-made replacement for him if he sucks- either Alcantara or Flaherty.

I'll also add that I don't think acquiring him precludes also acquiring a closer of some sort.

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Re: Cardinals/Marlins Offseason Dance - Stanton Says Nope

Post by JL21 »

By the way, if we do the same math for Yelich (4.0/4.1 Steamer/Depth Charts), gift him about 20% bonus value, with maybe only slight age regression at the end of his current 4-year deal... you're talking about 18ish wins ($189M value) for $45M. That's some $140M of surplus value. That's... going to take a haul. Reyes gets you halfway there. Reyes + Kelly or Weaver + one of the fringe 100 guys might be able to get it done.

But it is the Marlins and you can't take anything for granted with that team.

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