"not worthy of its own thread" offseason thread

[pioneer98]

There's no explanation for going into next season with the current bullpen other than the front office [expletive] blew it.

Yep. It's not like adding Reed (or someone of his caliber) would have broken the bank.

[MrCrowesGarden]

Not true but appreciate Pham's candor.

[Big Amoco Sign]

Glad Pham is ready to play.

Another 5+ fWAR season for him I think. He will bloom into a nice player for 3-4 years. Hope his eyes stay okay.

[Socnorb11]

These guys aren't a bunch of high school dropouts making these decisions. They've been one of the most successful MLB franchises. Granted, they're not perfect, but they've done well. I trust that they have a long-term plan that will work out well.

We're not all the successful when we don't have Albert Pujols.

This is interesting... since the transition point of 2006, we have won over 90 games just 4 times. We have 90 wins or fewer 8 times. Yes, there was playoff success in there -- and I'm definitely not discounting that -- but overall, we've been playing this 85-90 win game for a long time.

That wasn't such a big deal when the Cubs weren't very good and we only had to worry about the low-payroll Reds and Brewers, but the Cubs have completely changed the landscape of the NL Central. Right now, they're still out there chasing Darvish or Arrieta despite the fact that they already have Quintana and Lester. They'll likely get one of those guys, too. They did quite a bit to improve their bullpen. They're a very good team again.

Frankly, the Cubs are killing us in just about every area recently and I don't see a path where Jack Flaherty and Harrison Bader or whoever you think is going to make this club so good in '19 is going to do anything to change that. Yeah, maybe we give Machado $400M, but that seems extremely unlikely. It seems far more likely that the Cubs do that.

++. It was easy to play bully poker, but the Cardinals aren't the big stack anymore, both literally and figuratively. Outside of Reyes, I don't see the excitement. The prospects otherwise can be useful players but by far their most desirable trait is cost.

If there's not much value in these guys, then what makes you think that Mo could use them to acquire exceptional players? It seems that we think other teams are going to give us gold for our garbage.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that Mo has all of these assets that he should be using to build a great team, but when it looks like we might be stuck with those assets, you can't say there's no value there.


In 2019, guys like Weaver and Flaherty and Reyes will hopefully have matured into valuable big-league players. Kelly will hopefully have found a role. We'll know where we stand with guys like Hicks and Lyons and Dejong. Waino's $19 mil will be off the books. That's when the iron will be hot, in my opinion.

That's basically what the Cubs did. They didn't try to build the best possible team every off-season. They waited until all of the young pieces were in place, and then they made the big moves to get over the top.

The Cubs relied on highly regarded prospects.

Outside of Reyes, we don't have any prospects like that, and as far as everyday prospects, we have no potential real difference makers. Just a lot of the same.

The Cubs had good position prospects, but no pitching prospects. They filled those holes via free agency and trades. The Cards have strong pitching prospects, but not much in the way of position prospects, so they can fill those voids via free agency. It's not that different.

[MrCrowesGarden]

Except position players are more reliable than pitchers.

[Socnorb11]

Except position players are more reliable than pitchers.

Which is why I'm glad the Cardinals haven't traded away their pitching depth.

[Popeye_Card]

I wasn’t enamored with the options available on the FA market or dangled in trades this offseason, for relievers. I stated in another thread that my preference is for an organically grown bullpen, but the Cardinals also don’t really have that stable of relief arms in MLB or the high minors where that looks like a good possibility.

The lack of movement on the bullpen is shocking and disappointing. The Reed deal is especially disappointing, though I would have been only slightly less nervous with him being the plan at closer.

It’s just surprising how many things the Cardinals were looking at during the Winter Meetings, only to fold up the tent when they left. There are still a lot of FA’s left out there. I really wish the Cardinals would reverse course and grab a couple upgrades.

[MinorLeagueGuy]

The amount of fallback options we have in the current pen is scary. I'd hate to play(pitch) underwhelming baseball in Apr\May watching Luke attempt to get his "legs" back. Flounder in June, while we watch a carousel of Brebbia\Tui\Lyons\Cecil(yep) try to pitch us through 27 outs. Then lurk on the fringe of the trade market, hunting for a marginal upgrade that MIGHT fall to you on the waiver wire...WONT IT BE SO EXCITING?? game over

[Fat Strat]

The amount of fallback options we have in the current pen is scary. I'd hate to play(pitch) underwhelming baseball in Apr\May watching Luke attempt to get his "legs" back. Flounder in June, while we watch a carousel of Brebbia\Tui\Lyons\Cecil(yep) try to pitch us through 27 outs. Then lurk on the fringe of the trade market, hunting for a marginal upgrade that MIGHT fall to you on the waiver wire...WONT IT BE SO EXCITING?? game over

I have posted about this before, but also consider who is managing all that. Even the club has admitted that Matheny is not the best at handling a pen that doesn’t have set roles. Outside of Gregerson as the defacto “as of today” closer, no one else really has a defined role. Is Lyons the lefty specialist or the fireman? Cecil the lefty guy or the 8th inning guy, since Lyons is the fireman? Or is Tui the 8th inning guy, or fireman because Lyons is the 8th inning guy, or the longman because Cecil is the 8th and Lyons is the fireman?

I am sure that they will come out of spring training with some definition and that will last about 3 games and then typical bullpen hell will break loose and Matheny will flounder until July when we trade a 1st rounder for a Chisek type.

[Big Amoco Sign]

Reyes should be closer until the back end of the rotation needs him.

If Mikolas/Wainwright/Weaver prove to handle everything okay, leave him in the closer role. If one is failing, bring him in the rotation.

Easy enough.