Mozeliak: "Some Changes" Coming For Cardinals, But Not A Rebuild

[ThatGuy]

I also don't like being told I'm sooooooo spoiled as a Cardinals fan, particularly when the returns have been diminishing for quite a while now.

Yeah I'm pretty tired of people who try to make this point. It's about time that energy gets pointed back at DeWitt (and I think that's what's happening), because it's obvious to anyone who pays attention that he knows he can more or less phone it in and get 3 million fans through the turnstiles every season. That cynical approach is why his (uniquely blessed) franchise is currently in the cellar.

And to thrill's point, I do follow a number of other sports teams, but the comparison actually makes me more bothered by DeWitt's approach. I graduated from the University of Tennessee in 2011, and many of you probably know how moribund the football program was from about 2009 onward. So many different mistakes were made that contributed to this misery, but incompetent athletic directors making bad choices was really the core of it. A few years ago, UTK hired Danny White to take over as AD, and right from the start, his message has basically been: "This is a proud program with an incredible history and passionate fans, and we're going to do whatever it takes to compete for championships. Losing like this is unacceptable." Obviously there's still progress to be made, but the Vols won a NY6 bowl game last year in Josh Heupel's second year as coach, and Danny has the whole athletics program running in high gear. It's been really impressive to watch.

I compare that to DeWitt (and yes I know a college AD is not exactly like the owner of a professional sports franchise), and all I see is an owner who couldn't possibly be more comfortable resting on his laurels. He and Mo keep talking about being frustrated, but at the moment we don't have any evidence to suggest that the frustration will lead to changed behavior.

This isn't a blip—it's the culmination of a long downward trend. I think fans have every right to be mad.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

This is a more outside perspective so take it fwiw

The Cardinals have been almost unbelievably successful at avoiding being truly bad. Like they've lost 90 games(or the 154 game equivalent) only 5 times in 100+ years, and it hasn't happened in 30+ years. While there's certainly good fortune in individual seasons, that doesn't happen without being a competent organization for a long time. One of my personal takeaways from the last few years of following the Cubs is that while I never want it to happen, there is something good and even healthy about a team having down cycles. When your team is always good and is expected to be competitive you internalize a lot of that as a baseline, and it can sap the enjoyment of being a fan because success becomes the expectation and relief crowds out joy when good things happen. It also makes the inevitable downs feel that much more frustrating as a missed opportunity.

While I think that is useful perspective to balance the actual consequences being discussed(e.g. try getting sympathy from a Rockies or Tigers fan), it can be weaponized as a way of dismissing that improvement is possible or even reasonable. This goes doubly so when increasingly the consequences of bad decisions and bad process are taking a few years to surface, so while bad fortune can happen, it can also be a sign of organizational rot that may continue for some time even if quickly identified and addressed. I also think this applies to ownership/payroll fatalism, especially in the current environment where the new rules are reshaping the game and the last few CBAs have made payroll less of a driving factor in success than it has in recent years(and definitely going back to the 2000s).

[Popeye_Card]

This is a more outside perspective so take it fwiw

The Cardinals have been almost unbelievably successful at avoiding being truly bad. Like they've lost 90 games(or the 154 game equivalent) only 5 times in 100+ years, and it hasn't happened in 30+ years. While there's certainly good fortune in individual seasons, that doesn't happen without being a competent organization for a long time. One of my personal takeaways from the last few years of following the Cubs is that while I never want it to happen, there is something good and even healthy about a team having down cycles. When your team is always good and is expected to be competitive you internalize a lot of that as a baseline, and it can sap the enjoyment of being a fan because success becomes the expectation and relief crowds out joy when good things happen. It also makes the inevitable downs feel that much more frustrating as a missed opportunity.

While I think that is useful perspective to balance the actual consequences being discussed(e.g. try getting sympathy from a Rockies or Tigers fan), it can be weaponized as a way of dismissing that improvement is possible or even reasonable. This goes doubly so when increasingly the consequences of bad decisions and bad process are taking a few years to surface, so while bad fortune can happen, it can also be a sign of organizational rot that may continue for some time even if quickly identified and addressed. I also think this applies to ownership/payroll fatalism, especially in the current environment where the new rules are reshaping the game and the last few CBAs have made payroll less of a driving factor in success than it has in recent years(and definitely going back to the 2000s).

Well said.

In a lot of ways I am glad the Cardinals are having this season, because it will hopefully shake things up within the organization - if not explicitly with personnel, at least with their approach. The Cardinals have just been growing more and more risk averse over the past several years, and it is time to break out of that.

[go birds]

comparing the yankees to the cardinals is hilarious. like the dodgers, the yankees have the luxury of throwing money at any of their problems. they can spend the most in FA, can spend the most on international players, take penalties, get prospect bumps from the media that allows for them to acquire superstars for prospects that will never see the field, etc. just general stuff like that.

the cardinals on the other hand sign matz and contreras and the franchise is crippled for literally years, almost decades.

but yea...yankees...cardinals....etc

[haltz]

I think the issue with the Cards going out and realistically signing Cobb, Eovaldi or Wacha, is that while everyone agreed that the Cards had room to improve their pitching, they had a full rotation. Obviously every team ends up needing more than 5 starters to get through the season, but those guys you listed above - Cobb, Eovaldi, and Wacha - aren't signing to be the potential 6th guys/swing guy - and the Cardinals didn't want to relegate any of their 5 (Mikolas, Flaherty, Montgomery, Wainwright, and Matz) to that role - whether due to loyalty or $ commitment. Free agent pitchers are going to want to know that they are going to pitch, and I don't think the Cardinals were going to be able to guarentee anything other than "Maybe someone gets hurt" or "we will have a competition for the 4th/5th/6th starter spot". The 6th Starter/Swingman normally is filled with in-house options which Liberatore and Dakota Hudson would be the type of pitcher that would fill that spot, not a free agent starter for $10M.

Yeah Mo alluded to this in the interview, saying they didn't go after the top of the market guys, and pitchers in this category want to know they are going to pitch because they're playing for their next contract, which is fair, but I can think of a couple ways around that.

They also wanted Liberatore to get a shot because they needed to know if he was someone they could count on for 2024. Then he said the same thing about Hudson which I find infuriating.

Not only did all of those questions get answered negatively, one of the two pitchers they have under contract for next year was sent to the bullpen.

They figured they'd wait and see and now they're holding the bag, needing at least three, maybe four starters for next season. Who could've seen that coming besides everyone here. They needed to get ahead of this. Also, I don't want to make too much of this, but they've publicly showed their ass in a way that if I'm a free agent pitcher I might decide to play elsewhere, everything else equal.

[Lesson]

comparing the yankees to the cardinals is hilarious. like the dodgers, the yankees have the luxury of throwing money at any of their problems. they can spend the most in FA, can spend the most on international players, take penalties, get prospect bumps from the media that allows for them to acquire superstars for prospects that will never see the field, etc. just general stuff like that.

the cardinals on the other hand sign matz and contreras and the franchise is crippled for literally years, almost decades.

but yea...yankees...cardinals....etc

The Yankees are being frugal, though. They’ve made decisions within the past 5 years to avoid the luxury tax.

There’s no reason why they shouldn’t be the class of the AL.

I think realistically the Cardinals could annually try to be the second or third best team in the NL if they tried (which they don’t):

[dmarx114]

I also don't like being told I'm sooooooo spoiled as a Cardinals fan, particularly when the returns have been diminishing for quite a while now.

Yeah I'm pretty tired of people who try to make this point. It's about time that energy gets pointed back at DeWitt (and I think that's what's happening), because it's obvious to anyone who pays attention that he knows he can more or less phone it in and get 3 million fans through the turnstiles every season. That cynical approach is why his (uniquely blessed) franchise is currently in the cellar.

And to thrill's point, I do follow a number of other sports teams, but the comparison actually makes me more bothered by DeWitt's approach. I graduated from the University of Tennessee in 2011, and many of you probably know how moribund the football program was from about 2009 onward. So many different mistakes were made that contributed to this misery, but incompetent athletic directors making bad choices was really the core of it. A few years ago, UTK hired Danny White to take over as AD, and right from the start, his message has basically been: "This is a proud program with an incredible history and passionate fans, and we're going to do whatever it takes to compete for championships. Losing like this is unacceptable." Obviously there's still progress to be made, but the Vols won a NY6 bowl game last year in Josh Heupel's second year as coach, and Danny has the whole athletics program running in high gear. It's been really impressive to watch.

I compare that to DeWitt (and yes I know a college AD is not exactly like the owner of a professional sports franchise), and all I see is an owner who couldn't possibly be more comfortable resting on his laurels. He and Mo keep talking about being frustrated, but at the moment we don't have any evidence to suggest that the frustration will lead to changed behavior.

This isn't a blip—it's the culmination of a long downward trend. I think fans have every right to be mad.

15 straight years with a winning record, 4 straight post season appearances, 93 wins and a division title last year. What is this fictitious downward trend you speak of?

[dmarx114]

This is a more outside perspective so take it fwiw

The Cardinals have been almost unbelievably successful at avoiding being truly bad. Like they've lost 90 games(or the 154 game equivalent) only 5 times in 100+ years, and it hasn't happened in 30+ years. While there's certainly good fortune in individual seasons, that doesn't happen without being a competent organization for a long time. One of my personal takeaways from the last few years of following the Cubs is that while I never want it to happen, there is something good and even healthy about a team having down cycles. When your team is always good and is expected to be competitive you internalize a lot of that as a baseline, and it can sap the enjoyment of being a fan because success becomes the expectation and relief crowds out joy when good things happen. It also makes the inevitable downs feel that much more frustrating as a missed opportunity.

While I think that is useful perspective to balance the actual consequences being discussed(e.g. try getting sympathy from a Rockies or Tigers fan), it can be weaponized as a way of dismissing that improvement is possible or even reasonable. This goes doubly so when increasingly the consequences of bad decisions and bad process are taking a few years to surface, so while bad fortune can happen, it can also be a sign of organizational rot that may continue for some time even if quickly identified and addressed. I also think this applies to ownership/payroll fatalism, especially in the current environment where the new rules are reshaping the game and the last few CBAs have made payroll less of a driving factor in success than it has in recent years(and definitely going back to the 2000s).

Yes, this is exactly the problem. Cardinal fans have this disease. Not nearly as severe a case as Yankees fans, but still a problem nonetheless.

[Spider John]

I also don't like being told I'm sooooooo spoiled as a Cardinals fan, particularly when the returns have been diminishing for quite a while now.

Yeah I'm pretty tired of people who try to make this point. It's about time that energy gets pointed back at DeWitt (and I think that's what's happening), because it's obvious to anyone who pays attention that he knows he can more or less phone it in and get 3 million fans through the turnstiles every season. That cynical approach is why his (uniquely blessed) franchise is currently in the cellar.

And to thrill's point, I do follow a number of other sports teams, but the comparison actually makes me more bothered by DeWitt's approach. I graduated from the University of Tennessee in 2011, and many of you probably know how moribund the football program was from about 2009 onward. So many different mistakes were made that contributed to this misery, but incompetent athletic directors making bad choices was really the core of it. A few years ago, UTK hired Danny White to take over as AD, and right from the start, his message has basically been: "This is a proud program with an incredible history and passionate fans, and we're going to do whatever it takes to compete for championships. Losing like this is unacceptable." Obviously there's still progress to be made, but the Vols won a NY6 bowl game last year in Josh Heupel's second year as coach, and Danny has the whole athletics program running in high gear. It's been really impressive to watch.

I compare that to DeWitt (and yes I know a college AD is not exactly like the owner of a professional sports franchise), and all I see is an owner who couldn't possibly be more comfortable resting on his laurels. He and Mo keep talking about being frustrated, but at the moment we don't have any evidence to suggest that the frustration will lead to changed behavior.

This isn't a blip—it's the culmination of a long downward trend. I think fans have every right to be mad.

15 straight years with a winning record, 4 straight post season appearances, 93 wins and a division title last year. What is this fictitious downward trend you speak of?

You know what, if you're fine with that good for you. Some of us expect more, and pounding us with your position over and over is getting to be a tired act. You are smart enough to know that a post season appearance these days is cheap, and their playoff record is dismal. I sometimes suspect that you are related to Mo.

[thrill]

I also don't like being told I'm sooooooo spoiled as a Cardinals fan, particularly when the returns have been diminishing for quite a while now.

Yeah I'm pretty tired of people who try to make this point. It's about time that energy gets pointed back at DeWitt (and I think that's what's happening), because it's obvious to anyone who pays attention that he knows he can more or less phone it in and get 3 million fans through the turnstiles every season. That cynical approach is why his (uniquely blessed) franchise is currently in the cellar.

And to thrill's point, I do follow a number of other sports teams, but the comparison actually makes me more bothered by DeWitt's approach. I graduated from the University of Tennessee in 2011, and many of you probably know how moribund the football program was from about 2009 onward. So many different mistakes were made that contributed to this misery, but incompetent athletic directors making bad choices was really the core of it. A few years ago, UTK hired Danny White to take over as AD, and right from the start, his message has basically been: "This is a proud program with an incredible history and passionate fans, and we're going to do whatever it takes to compete for championships. Losing like this is unacceptable." Obviously there's still progress to be made, but the Vols won a NY6 bowl game last year in Josh Heupel's second year as coach, and Danny has the whole athletics program running in high gear. It's been really impressive to watch.

And when Danny White and Josh Heupel go take better jobs, Tennessee will start over, and DeMo will still be winning 88 games a year. And we'll still be here complaining about them not taking the one or two steps necessary to get to 95 wins a year.