Iraq is a Fool's Errand.

[haltz]

Wake up fools - if you aren't in Bush's 'Have-More's' you aren't getting anything out of this war other than a swift kick in the ass.

To harsh to put in the thread you were responding to?

I can see where you are coming from. But if I put it in the other Iraq thread, the message would have been lost. it is vitally important that people begin to understand how much they have been manipulated.

I don't buy it. You couldn't use the same language if you directly replied.

I wouldn't worry about the kids though. Jon Stewart tells us what to think, and his tone is much more captivating.

[Joe Shlabotnik]

The question that I'm waiting to hear answered is, what do we do now. try to ignore the misinformation and potential duplicity that got us into the war. Try to ignore the blood that has been shed. What do we do now that results in a workably stable Iraqi government?

That is indeed the question. I think it is clear now that Saddam was in charge because that kind of brutality was (is) necessary to keep the lid on all the contending rivalries and passions that make up the political mix in Iraq. We forgot that Iraq was carved out by the British as a way to ensure lots of infighting in pursuit of the 'divide and conquer' imperialist ideal (look it up).

I see two ways out.

1: Tell our allies first that we plan to be out in 9 months. Give them 3 months to adjust. Then tell the Iraqis we are gone in 6 months. Fall back to the old fly zone / borders. Enforce the rules of engagement and minimize the influence of Iran/Syria/etc on what course Iraq takes. Wait for the next strong man to emerge and then deal with him. Don't worry, the Iraqis know how to run their own country. They were doing it for centuries before we invaded. Really running water, indoor plumbing, electricity, gas stations. All that stuff they don't have now. Really - they can do that all by themselves. They may need a tyrant to keep the peace but it is peace for the little guy. And believe me, the rank and file Iraqi knows that.

or

2: Break the country up into 3 countries: Kurds/Sunnies/Shiites. But this is going to be difficult as the rest of the big countries need to be on board with it. Not sure your going to get that kind of consensus.

But right now, the status quo is bleeding what is left of our prestige and our resources. A colossal blunder of historic proportions.

[Joe Shlabotnik]

wouldn't worry about the kids though. Jon Stewart tells us what to think, and his tone is much more captivating.

Jon Stewart gives you an alternative to the group think that swept this country post 9/11.

[lukethedrifter]

or

2: Break the country up into 3 countries: Kurds/Sunnies/Shiites. But this is going to be difficult as the rest of the big countries need to be on board with it. Not sure your going to get that kind of consensus.

But right now, the status quo is bleeding what is left of our prestige and our resources. A colossal blunder of historic proportions.

Absolutely will not and cannot happen, unfortunately. Turkey will never go for it, nor will Russia (see the Russian view on Kosovo)

[Joe Shlabotnik]

or

2: Break the country up into 3 countries: Kurds/Sunnies/Shiites. But this is going to be difficult as the rest of the big countries need to be on board with it. Not sure your going to get that kind of consensus.

But right now, the status quo is bleeding what is left of our prestige and our resources. A colossal blunder of historic proportions.

Absolutely will not and cannot happen, unfortunately. Turkey will never go for it, nor will Russia (see the Russian view on Kosovo)

I agree.

[wart57]

So, the brutality of Hussein is needed to keep peace? Thousands murdered to keep the peace? How is that peace?

[Cronos]

I think this kind of dialect is counter to an intelligent, civil disagreement. Calling people fools, and to "wake up", is not a good plan in my opinion.

Which is why I don't tend to participate in these kinds of arguments(see the Current Affairs board, STL P-D site). People who use terms such as those aren't going to change their opinion, and they're not going to hold my attention long enough to change mine.

I wouldn't worry about the kids though. Jon Stewart tells us what to think, and his tone is much more captivating.

ha, well played.

[Arthur Dent]

or

2: Break the country up into 3 countries: Kurds/Sunnies/Shiites. But this is going to be difficult as the rest of the big countries need to be on board with it. Not sure your going to get that kind of consensus.

But right now, the status quo is bleeding what is left of our prestige and our resources. A colossal blunder of historic proportions.

Absolutely will not and cannot happen, unfortunately. Turkey will never go for it, nor will Russia (see the Russian view on Kosovo)

The history of imperial partition is pretty ugly too. See India/Pakistan.

If we care about the well being of Iraqis, we should do what they ask and make an ordered withdrawal.

[jim]

So, the brutality of Hussein is needed to keep peace? Thousands murdered to keep the peace? How is that peace?

It was my understanding that we took out Sadaam because he and his WMD were an immediate threat to our national security. That was the reason explained to me, and if it was indeed something else then it should have been communicated with the American public as such. The fact that he was a brutal tyrant made it even more desirable, but there just isn't enough to go around to police the world.

[Joe Shlabotnik]

So, the brutality of Hussein is needed to keep peace? Thousands murdered to keep the peace? How is that peace?

Damn right it was. How was Hussein any different than the iron fists in Syria or Saudi Arabia? North Korea or China? Did we invade them?

You're altruism is misplaced. If it isn't Saddam, it's going to be someone else until they learn to put away their vengence and their clan/tribal loyalties. Democracy is something you learn from the cradle up. It's in the way you deal with others and what you learn in school. You cannot impose it on people ill prepared to exercise it. It is laughable to expect to impose it at the end of a gun which is what we are attempting.