jim wrote:
But apparently you are *not* getting it. You continue to incite and polarize (light coming on, know you get it), and hurt your cause.
I believe you are deciding to shoot the messenger so you don't have to consider the message. One of these days, you'll wake up. Maybe when your pastor finally admits it and tells you to change your mind, or your dad, or maybe your buddy coming back from his last tour in beautiful downtown Baghdad.
Yeah I'm pissed. it's been 4 years of horsesh$t from the powers that be and I'm tired of it.
Maybe I'm missing something here, Joe, but aren't you basically in agreement with jim? The only difference is that jim says he trusted the government's claims at the time of the invasion but now considers that a mistake. Isn't it OK for reasonable people to make mistakes or change their mind? Why the vitriol?
jim wrote:
But apparently you are *not* getting it. You continue to incite and polarize (light coming on, know you get it), and hurt your cause.
I believe you are deciding to shoot the messenger so you don't have to consider the message. One of these days, you'll wake up. Maybe when your pastor finally admits it and tells you to change your mind, or your dad, or maybe your buddy coming back from his last tour in beautiful downtown Baghdad.
Yeah I'm pissed. it's been 4 years of horsesh$t from the powers that be and I'm tired of it.
Have you read enough of my posts, and gotten past your anger to realize that essentially we are on the same side? Are you not seeing that my problem with your posts, is that you hurt my cause by alienating the "opponent"?
I'm pissed and tired of it too. But I'm also pissed and tired of people who communicate in such a way that makes it impossible to get the message across.
Arthur Dent wrote:Maybe I'm missing something here, Joe, but aren't you basically in agreement with jim? The only difference is that jim says he trusted the government's claims at the time of the invasion but now considers that a mistake. Isn't it OK for reasonable people to make mistakes or change their mind? Why the vitriol?
I NEVER trusted the governments claims. What I said was I held out the possibility that they knew something that I didn't. That, to me, is a far cry from "trust". That's all I said.
wart57 wrote: Then this whole thing would be for nothing. All the soldiers died for nothing.
Now you're beginning to get it. The light is coming on for you. Doesn't feel comfortable does it? Now you see why I'm cranky?
Like I said, Saddam didn't just happen. He wasn't unique or the first. There is a reason why brutality rules over there. Think of it like a bunch of mafia clans vying for power.
I mean for crissake, look at how the shiites handled getting the power now that they are in charge. Positions handed out to favorites, bribes and kickbacks needed, getting rid of those who got rid of them when they were down. Why? Because that's the way they are brought up. That is how they run things. New boss same as the old boss.
That's the reality.
You want to bring democracy to these folks? Then start teaching it in their schools, start teaching a different brand of Islam. Now, how big of an army do you think you'll need to accomplish that?
My entire quote was if we pulled all our troops out now and let some Tyrant take over again, everything that we have lost would have been for nothing.
Are you in favor of letting the people of Iraq fend for themselves, and be brutalized again? Why not, they are no Americans, who cares if they are hurt, heck, they aren't even Christians, let them suffer, is that what you want? I am not implying that is what you want, I am simply asking.
Arthur Dent wrote:Maybe I'm missing something here, Joe, but aren't you basically in agreement with jim? The only difference is that jim says he trusted the government's claims at the time of the invasion but now considers that a mistake. Isn't it OK for reasonable people to make mistakes or change their mind? Why the vitriol?
I NEVER trusted the governments claims. What I said was I held out the possibility that they knew something that I didn't. That, to me, is a far cry from "trust". That's all I said.
OK. I understand your meaning. It just doesn't seem like a big disagreement at this point.
Arthur Dent wrote:Maybe I'm missing something here, Joe, but aren't you basically in agreement with jim? The only difference is that jim says he trusted the government's claims at the time of the invasion but now considers that a mistake. Isn't it OK for reasonable people to make mistakes or change their mind? Why the vitriol?
I NEVER trusted the governments claims. What I said was I held out the possibility that they knew something that I didn't. That, to me, is a far cry from "trust". That's all I said.
OK. I understand your meaning. It just doesn't seem like a big disagreement at this point.
Like doc said, it's all about the method of presenting your argument where someone will at least listen.
wart57 wrote:
Are you in favor of letting the people of Iraq fend for themselves, and be brutalized again? Why not, they are no Americans, who cares if they are hurt, heck, they aren't even Christians, let them suffer, is that what you want? I am not implying that is what you want, I am simply asking.
I believe that is what the Iraqis want. The right to self-determination. I don't think it will be pretty. But neither is what our hands have wrought.
wart57 wrote:
Are you in favor of letting the people of Iraq fend for themselves, and be brutalized again? Why not, they are no Americans, who cares if they are hurt, heck, they aren't even Christians, let them suffer, is that what you want? I am not implying that is what you want, I am simply asking.
I believe that is what the Iraqis want. The right to self-determination. I don't think it will be pretty. But neither is what our hands have wrought.
Which Iraqi's want this, the ones who will move in and take power for themselves, or the inocent people of the country who will be forced to suffer if they don't share the exact same religious beliefs as those in power? Are you saying we should just get out of the way and let them kill eachother?
Sorry guys, our bad, we took out your governemnt, but you don't want us here, so goodbye, good luck rebuilding, and don't kill eachother too badly.
We made this mess, it is not our problem though.
