Poetry studying

[sighyoung]

With a few exceptions, I never really got poetry either. It seems to be written in some kind of code, and even when it's unraveled for me, I never really got the point. Like why would I want to read a love poem that's primarily a comment on other love poems? It all seems rather self-referential to me. I don't really mean that as criticism. My mind apparently just doesn't work that way.

Not taken as criticism. Many novels allude to other novels, of course. With poetry, it's not necessarily a closed-off club, but it does help to know the frame of reference, oftentimes.

Also, I wonder whether ghostrunner is also talking about figures of speech, such as metaphor and simile. These also have their uses. Even rhyme can be useful, both for writers (it expands or contracts the range of word choice) and readers (highlighting key ideas, and contrasting them between lines).

Edit: I generally enjoy the poems Garrison Keillor puts on The Writer's Almanac in the morning, but I imagine these are not sophisticated enough to be cool.

Never worry about what some call sophisticated. Be well, do good work, and keep in touch.

[ghostrunner]

With a few exceptions, I never really got poetry either. It seems to be written in some kind of code, and even when it's unraveled for me, I never really got the point. Like why would I want to read a love poem that's primarily a comment on other love poems? It all seems rather self-referential to me. I don't really mean that as criticism. My mind apparently just doesn't work that way.

Not taken as criticism. Many novels allude to other novels, of course. With poetry, it's not necessarily a closed-off club, but it does help to know the frame of reference, oftentimes.

Also, I wonder whether ghostrunner is also talking about figures of speech, such as metaphor and simile. These also have their uses. Even rhyme can be useful, both for writers (it expands or contracts the range of word choice) and readers (highlighting key ideas, and contrasting them between lines).

Edit: I generally enjoy the poems Garrison Keillor puts on The Writer's Almanac in the morning, but I imagine these are not sophisticated enough to be cool.

Never worry about what some call sophisticated. Be well, do good work, and keep in touch.

Ugh, Garrison Keillor reading poetry. No offense, but that's is like the perfect storm of annoyance for me. I've listened to his show for several minutes at a time, just thinking there must be something I'm missing. I never find it. I love the Simpsons episode where he's on PBS speaking to a laughing audience and Homer pounds the TV to try and make it funnier. I suppose I shouldn't be too proud of that though, considering.

I don't have a problem with metaphors or similes. Those are used in prose all the time. Rhythm and rhyme are what I find most bothersome. So perhaps my mentioning of musicals is apt. Why break in the middle of a story with a song? Makes no sense to me. Similarly, why force an idea into a rhyming scheme? If you're going to do that, you may as well write music. That's my thought process anyway.

[sighyoung]

I suppose much of this is left over from oral traditions, when rhythm and rhyme aided memory and reciting. And, true, lyric poetry has a long tradition of being linked to music.

Rhythm and rhyme don't seem all that strange to me. Rhythm in particular--iambic pentameter really isn't far from the rhythms of spoken English, but rhythmic shifts within an expected meter can produce interesting effects.

In other languages (Spanish, Italian), rhyme is far easier than in English, so would probably seem less strained.

I can see why you would like Whitman, but why Cummings? Much of his poetry is, well, written in exceptionally traditional meters and rhyme schemes? He writes tons of sonnets that are simply rearranged visually through typographical manipulation.

[ghostrunner]

I can see why you would like Whitman, but why Cummings? Much of his poetry is, well, written in exceptionally traditional meters and rhyme schemes? He writes tons of sonnets that are simply rearranged visually through typographical manipulation.

Well, here's one I like:

i like my body when it is with your
body. It is so quite new a thing.
Muscles better and nerves more.
i like your body. i like what it does,
i like its hows. i like to feel the spine
of your body and its bones, and the trembling
-firm-smooth ness and which i will
again and again and again
kiss, i like kissing this and that of you,
i like, slowly stroking the, shocking fuzz
of your electric fur, and what-is-it comes
over parting flesh . . . . And eyes big love-crumbs,

and possibly i like the thrill

of under me you so quite new

no rhyming there, and if there's a rhythm it's not readily apparent to me. some of his stuff is more conversational, at least in the way I read it.

[JCShutout]

I suppose much of this is left over from oral traditions, when rhythm and rhyme aided memory and reciting. And, true, lyric poetry has a long tradition of being linked to music.

You took the words out of my mouth.

Most ancient scriptures, when read in their original languages, utilize rhyming schemes, because they were not written down for generations.

[StatmanCrothers]

I wrote a lot of cryptic lyrics when I was in a band.
I tried to make them suggestive of pieces of a story
but left out more than enough so the listener had to fill in the blanks
and what people would come up with was usually
much more disturbed than if I had been explicit.

perhaps some day the lyrics will be studied and i will finally learn what they were about.

[sighyoung]

I can see why you would like Whitman, but why Cummings? Much of his poetry is, well, written in exceptionally traditional meters and rhyme schemes? He writes tons of sonnets that are simply rearranged visually through typographical manipulation.

Well, here's one I like:

i like my body when it is with your
body. It is so quite new a thing.
Muscles better and nerves more.
i like your body. i like what it does,
i like its hows. i like to feel the spine
of your body and its bones, and the trembling
-firm-smooth ness and which i will
again and again and again
kiss, i like kissing this and that of you,
i like, slowly stroking the, shocking fuzz
of your electric fur, and what-is-it comes
over parting flesh . . . . And eyes big love-crumbs,

and possibly i like the thrill

of under me you so quite new

no rhyming there, and if there's a rhythm it's not readily apparent to me. some of his stuff is more conversational, at least in the way I read it.

It's not written in a strict meter, but there is a general iambic rhythm that cummings varies considerably (he is writing about sex, after all).

Lots of regular iambic stretches ("I like its hows. I like to feel the spine" is a strict iambic pentameter line), but as things heat up, the rhythm shifts to lots of triple-foot substitution ("of your body and its bones and the trembling") and brief emphasis when the speaker gets really excited ("firm smoothness"), as well as verbal and rhythmic repetition ("and again and again and again").

cummings then returns to a pretty regular iambic rhythm with slight variations( "kissing this and that of you") with slight variations when the speaker gets really worked up ("i like slowly stroking the shocking fuzz").

In other words, you're right--there's no rigid meter here (ideally, iambically metered poems often don't sound mannered like da-dum da-dum da-dum anyway--most are quite conversational), but cummings is subtly using rhythmic changes to emphasize the pleasures and changes of sexual activity here--all quite subtly, as you say. But cummings knows enough about meter to pull off these rhythmic shifts quite well, which consistently (and unobtrusively) serve his meaning (much like film music often adds emotional tone to scenes without overwhelming the visual proceedings, to return to your musical comparison).

[sighyoung]

I wrote a lot of cryptic lyrics when I was in a band.
I tried to make them suggestive of pieces of a story
but left out more than enough so the listener had to fill in the blanks
and what people would come up with was usually
much more disturbed than if I had been explicit.

perhaps some day the lyrics will be studied and i will finally learn what they were about.

You longed for your mother, and feared castration by your father. Same as all lyrics.

[ghostrunner]

I can see why you would like Whitman, but why Cummings? Much of his poetry is, well, written in exceptionally traditional meters and rhyme schemes? He writes tons of sonnets that are simply rearranged visually through typographical manipulation.

Well, here's one I like:

i like my body when it is with your
body. It is so quite new a thing.
Muscles better and nerves more.
i like your body. i like what it does,
i like its hows. i like to feel the spine
of your body and its bones, and the trembling
-firm-smooth ness and which i will
again and again and again
kiss, i like kissing this and that of you,
i like, slowly stroking the, shocking fuzz
of your electric fur, and what-is-it comes
over parting flesh . . . . And eyes big love-crumbs,

and possibly i like the thrill

of under me you so quite new

no rhyming there, and if there's a rhythm it's not readily apparent to me. some of his stuff is more conversational, at least in the way I read it.

It's not written in a strict meter, but there is a general iambic rhythm that cummings varies considerably (he is writing about sex, after all).

Lots of regular iambic stretches ("I like its hows. I like to feel the spine" is a strict iambic pentameter line), but as things heat up, the rhythm shifts to lots of triple-foot substitution ("of your body and its bones and the trembling") and brief emphasis when the speaker gets really excited ("firm smoothness"), as well as verbal and rhythmic repetition ("and again and again and again").

cummings then returns to a pretty regular iambic rhythm with slight variations( "kissing this and that of you") with slight variations when the speaker gets really worked up ("i like slowly stroking the shocking fuzz").

In other words, you're right--there's no rigid meter here (ideally, iambically metered poems often don't sound mannered like da-dum da-dum da-dum anyway--most are quite conversational), but cummings is subtly using rhythmic changes to emphasize the pleasures and changes of sexual activity here--all quite subtly, as you say. But cummings knows enough about meter to pull off these rhythmic shifts quite well, which consistently (and unobtrusively) serve his meaning (much like film music often adds emotional tone to scenes without overwhelming the visual proceedings, to return to your musical comparison).

see there, your explanation is better than most poetry

[jim]

Tell your dad to help you rather than watching Bulls sucking up tonight!

Believe me, I was helping...

I guess my question for educators out there - what do you think it does to an 8th graders long term chances of memorizing things like this? He has a memory like you wouldn't believe and I have never seen him struggle to memorize something like this. I'd say he's pretty much done with poetry for a long time after this exercise.